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Author Topic: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue  (Read 3557 times)

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Offline Camelman

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Lets brain-storm...

As you may or may not know, you can win a free entry to the 2018 Dakar Rally on a motorbike if:
  • You win the Amageza Rallye - Dakar Challenge
  • You finish within the top 30% overall in your class.

The Dakar basics:
  • You can only race the Dakar on a 450cc or smaller capacity bike
  • The Dakar Challenge is for a Malle Moto (trunk and bike) entry.
  • You need to get yourself and your bike to Europe. (or rent a rally bike in Europe)

The problem:
If I allow the Restricted (450 and less) and Open (451 and more) to compete together for the Dakar Challenge (Free entry to Dakar 2018) I may be faced with the wrath of the Restricted looser if a 690 wins, or a Open looser if a 450 wins.

The arguments:
  • The 450 is better on technical and twisty
  • The 690 is better on sand or open track

I have thought of:
  • Air-restrictions: similar to what Dakar did for 2008 with 690's
  • A handicap system based on engine capacity. (Lots of questions here, and lots of arguments. So it needs to be air-tight.)

I don't want to disappoint the riders in the open class, but I also don't want to sit with protests after the race. Seeing that one wants to be fair, what do I do? Friday I sent out a letter stating 450 only, now I'm second guessing that decision after chatting to a 501 competitor in the gym. The objective of 2016 was to keep the race simple and awesome, not to have a competitor have to fork out for a new bike. We all want to do the Dakar, but how do we keep this engine capacity-thing fair to all?

I will really appreciate your thoughts on this one.  :-\
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 09:48:01 am by Camelman »
 

Offline Crossed-up

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2016, 11:05:36 am »
It's a lot of money and the chance of a lifetime. It should be absolutely fair. Handicapping, terrain performance or power restriction will never satisfy the querulous entrant. 450 only is my vote.

Does Dakar Org have nothing to say about this?
 

Offline JustBendIt

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2016, 11:58:15 am »
I agree about 450 only.

Anybody who is really that serious about Dakar should be on a 450 already - and if not should be able to beg, borrow, steal or buy one
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 01:09:44 pm by Jagsding »
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Offline Scrat

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2016, 01:08:52 pm »
It's a lot of money and the chance of a lifetime. It should be absolutely fair. Handicapping, terrain performance or power restriction will never satisfy the querulous entrant. 450 only is my vote.

Does Dakar Org have nothing to say about this?

I agree... I would love to do the Dakar ... One day ... but to be honest i do not have the $$$ to support that dream now... so if i had i would have bought the 450....
I say keep it easy!
stick to 450....  :thumleft:

And if you really want to make it interesting... keep it to Male Motto + 450  :pot: :pot:

even better  >:D

my 2c...  :biggrin:
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Offline Crossed-up

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2016, 02:13:44 pm »

And if you really want to make it interesting... keep it to Male Motto + 450 


I think I'm right in saying the Challenge riders have to do Malle Moto. That way they can be monitored more closely to avoid cheating etc.
 

Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2016, 07:04:15 pm »
Initially I thought 450 only.  But I guess we are thinking 450 rally light.  However, Chris Oppermann's 450RR runs pretty much with my 690 in sand and open terrain, so I don't really think you can say a 690 will have an advantage.  He can also carry more fuel, so he can run full taps for longer periods than I can on a long stage.  It also looks after tyres better than a 690.

So, to make it fair, everybody will need to be on similar spec 450 lites, as an RR will eat a lite in sand and open and be almost as good in tech, due to the suspension advantage.  So as far as I'm concerned, run what you brung and roll the dice on your choice,  if its a balanced course, it will even out at the end (unless you brought an RR).
 

Offline gser

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2016, 07:48:19 am »
450cc and smaller , four and two strokes ! for me.
 
 

Offline Camelman

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2016, 07:55:29 am »
Thanks for your input so far.

It is true that a factory RR will beat the pants off a stock 450, but it's a bit unfair to try and spec a bike to the 't'. In the end, if one rider has a stock 450 with a RR motor, and another has a stock 450 with a RR kit, who will know the difference by eyeballing it?

So Dakar spec is basically:
  • 450cc or less
  • Must be homologated for road use in the country of origin.
  • Max 35 liters of fuel
  • Must have lights + separate dust light

Most of the bikes (70%+) that I saw on my trip to BA last year, was the same as ours. Stock standard with a rear tank and a fairing + oil cooler. You never see them on TV, but they are the bulk. Now, it may be that they swapped out some stock components like swing-arms etc for more exotic ones, but it still looks like the stock item.

I too think that doing it Malle Moto is the way to go, but keep in mind the second requirement of A.S.O: 'Must finish in the top 30% of the class'. Doing that Malle Moto is a tough ask, although if you do, you are likely to kick serious butt in Dakar.

Our objective is, and must be to get African (Indigenous and Euro-African (I think I just invented that word.  ;D)) to the podium at Dakar.  This means creating a race representative of the Dakar, then assisting riders to reach the level required to be in the top 10.

What is Dakar Spec routing:
  • Long liaisons
  • Long Specials. Not so difficult technically, but it wears you down, and the lack of sleep and long hours on liaison taps your strength.

Now you won't train for the Cape Epic MTB race on a 3.5kg racing bicycle will you? You want to put long hours in the saddle on a similar machine to what you will be racing. In the same way you don't want to do a 7 stage endurance rally on a big bike, then take on a even longer endurance rally on a small bike? You need to know where the bike's happy place it, where you butt needs to go on the seat for a long liaison stint. What will happen to your 450cc motor after 700km of riding, your back, arms, etc.

So yeah, I also think 450. But lets keep the votes coming and the comments, please. The SR's is to be published tomorrow. This thread is more than likely going to influence the SR's regarding the Dakar Challenge.
 

Offline gser

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2016, 08:06:09 am »
Sterkte Kameelman !
 

Offline markdiver

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2016, 08:26:53 am »
Although I voted for the 450cc only above, I have to also say that the difference or advantage between a 450 RR and a 690, is that the 450 RR is overall the superior bike.  I have come up behind 690's in the sand and the 450 simply cruises past.  A good rider in on 690 in technical stuff and good gravel roads can eat up the km's in no time.  So is there a real difference or an advantage gained by either bike, I really don't think there is, imho.  But as you say Alex, keep it simple and for the sure protest afterwards that will come, even though you may have spelt it out before hand, you really do not need that headache. 
For me the real difference in competing for this Challenge, is whether yo are are malle moto or support.  That there is reason for protest and slag talk.  These 2 categories are hugely different and take completely different training, technical and sleep deprived skills.  There is a definite advantage being in the support category as apposed to the malle moto, no matter the bike you are on. The challenge should be either in Malle Moto or Support class.
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Offline BV

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2016, 08:33:11 am »
450.
If you have the bolls and bucks in thinking of doing Dakar you will not have a problem of going out on the right bike from start.
Having been to Dakar this year what Alex is saying of bikes is true. Coma's wife did the dakar on a modified 450.
That,s the rule for Dakar so play the game from the start.
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Offline Geel Kat

Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2016, 08:50:53 am »
450 Malle Moto - it is the only real way.

Support riders have a huge advantage over Malle Moto, everyone knows that already.
 

Offline Scrat

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2016, 08:55:08 am »
450 Malle Moto - it is the only real way.

Support riders have a huge advantage over Malle Moto, everyone knows that already.

 :thumleft: ;)
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Offline T9ER

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2016, 10:30:21 am »
All bikes have pros and cons. A KTM 450rr is a clear winner at both ends and is better than a 690 on pretty much all terrain. I say let the guys ride whatever they want too. If you look at the top riders each year there is a pretty even split between the different classes. If you take Baja with more technical terrain probably similar to what we will ride this year the smaller 450s dominated. This isn't the Dakar, just a chance to go to the Dakar 14 months away. Lots of guys are on bigger bikes so they can use them for commuting and adventure as well. Why exclude them. If there was a clear advantage all the top okes would be on them which they are not. If they win chances are they will buy a 450rr or rent one for the Dakar.
Malle moto sounds cool to me by the way.

oh and lets be honest "its not about the bike."

Does the ASO have a ruling on this?
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Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2016, 10:36:56 am »
My point exactly: why exclude the 690 when the 450RR have all the advantages over a home build effort that a 690 would have but then is much better than a 690 when it becomes rocky.  Run what you brung...
 

Offline AlexRG

Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2016, 08:24:59 pm »

I voted for 450 (just because I have one)... but as Joey says... it's really up to the rider and his skills to navigate at speed... a good rider will clean it with any bike! So perhaps open to all then?
 

Offline MaxThePanda

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2016, 11:39:22 am »
From my experience in Amageza I'd say the bike is less than 10% of the issue. Perhaps 2015 where there were lots of open sections, favoured the 690s, but not by much. I used to have a 690 and swopped it for a 450 when thinking of doing the Amageza for the first time, and from my point of view the suspension benefits of the 450 far outweighed the engine advantage of the 690. OK, perhaps the RR is an unfair advantage, but you can't control this to the T.

The difference between the 450 and 500 KTMs is negligible, so why handicap someone who already has a 500 and make them buy a 450?

We're a tiny market, and I'd say the more the merrier. The better rider is going to win just about every time anyway, no matter the bike. Even, I'd venture to say, against an RR. Open it to everyone. Sounds like the route this year will level the playing field anyway.

Offline GraZer

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2016, 06:19:14 pm »
I agree that the bike is most likely less of an issue. In the end I would expect it to come down to who can afford the cost because, lets be honest, having your entry paid for is just the start of a long list of costs. Looking through the sample budget on the Rally Management Services website, it paints a pretty scary picture of what the costs are. While I have not had the privilege of speaking with any of the local lads regarding the costs of Dakar, I would love to hear from anyone who does have first hand knowledge of the costs.

http://www.rallymanagementservices.com/pages/sample-budget-for-the-dakar-rally
 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2016, 07:54:09 pm »
Alexander bud I think you answered the question already and the vote seems to confirm it.

450 or nada.

As it is I think your biggest concern -and rightly so- is still that the guy who wins it must be willing and able to go.
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Offline Bram

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Re: 2016 Amageza Rallye: Dakar Challenge - Engine Capacity Issue
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2016, 09:36:00 pm »
Just a question of topic. It mentions in the first post that one of the conditionsof winning the dakar challange is that the rider and the bike must get themselves to europe. Does this mean that the 2018 dakar will start in europe again?