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Offline Odd Dog

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2016, 12:55:25 pm »
If its a public road and the farmer needs to lock the gate for security needs why not place a sign with the farmers number so that he can unlock said gate and access can be granted. If it's private land/road then tough luck, no permission = no access.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 12:57:48 pm by Odd Dog »
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Offline dirtyXT

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2016, 12:57:48 pm »
probably not going to work if farmer like Bie visits once a week? or maybe just a cell number? but even then i doubt Bie will be able to drop what he is doing and dash over.
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Online GRIM

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2016, 01:59:51 pm »
I have an access road over a part of my farm - it is a servitude over my neighbors farms to allow me access, and to make life easier I made it a through road so that the neighboring farmers don't have to drive all the way around to visit each other. The section through my farm appears on no map, however the servitudes on my neighbors land do appear - even though it is a private road. Then local truckers decided to use the road as a thoroughfare and stuffed it up for all, in rainy season it was unusable except by tractor, so I gated and locked it, and gave the neighbors keys. People who break the locks get a kak time and their day / weekend is generally ruined, and that is their tough shit.

As an aside, I still laugh when I remember the 2 4x4's that drove through a fence and over my lands and got stuck in a bog - then wanted me to pull them out. Shame.  ;D

Locked gates are locked for a reason.
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Offline ktmmer

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2016, 02:08:34 pm »
I spent the week end riding in the area between Willowmore, Aberdeen and Steytlerville. On two occassions I found locked gates on what are, according to me, proclaimed roads.

In both instances I popped the lock open, and closed the gate behind me. The one farmer approached me and we got into an argument about this. When I assked him who had given him authority to close the road he had no answer.

I would like to know where one can verify if a road is still proclaimed, and if it is and a farmer has locked the gate, what action can be taken.

The farmers are starting to get to me, and I would like to know if you could lay a charge at the local SAPS if they lock a gate on a public road.

Any and all opinions welcome.

How do you pop a lock open?
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Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2016, 02:11:34 pm »
To add to what has been said. A friend recently wanted to sell his farm, actually a combination of 5 portions. Two portions had an access road coming in from the north, then joining up and coming out at the southernmost portion. None of those roads were ever graded anymore, he had to maintain them himself to be able to use them. For about 5 years prior to him selling the back entrances were locked and when he sold the property the buyer wanted to have clarity on the legality thereof. He would not have bought if he could not legally lock the gates.

Long story short, the roads department in PE was contacted and although the road appeared on their maps, there was no number assigned to the road. Even they did not know whether it was still a proclaimed public road, there were no records to indicate either way, so it was sold and is still locked. This was also a well used road some 20 years ago, road-signs and all, yet even the roads department could not say whether it was still proclaimed. I find it difficult to grasp how a recently graded road with new road-signs can be locked. How did the grader get there to grade beyond locked gates?

Surely you may defend yourself if it makes you feel better, but again, you were warned. Don't break other people's stuff simply because you think you can, all the while not even knowing whether it is in fact a proclaimed road. You might be trespassing for all you know, breaking and entering someone's property illegally and then confronting the owner in an aggressive way. Try it with the wrong guy and you may very well need to defend yourself. It is exactly this attitude that spoils it for others too. No gate will be locked without a proper reason. You expect farmers to put up with gates left open, with livestock and equipment theft etc for three years running so that just on the off chance you can ride through his farm unhindered during the fourth year.
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Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2016, 02:17:49 pm »
How do you pop a lock open?
If I ever need to pop a lock open  :peepwall:

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Online Kortbroek

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2016, 02:41:25 pm »
How do you pop a lock open?
If I ever need to pop a lock open  :peepwall:

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That is why all the gates on our farms have a high quality version of these kind of locks on them. Short of cutting they are not that simple to break



You will find that stopping and chatting to farmers along the way many of them will even open gates onto private roads. I find myself way more reasonable when someone phones or stops at the house and asks for permission than when you catch the bastard climbing a gate or driving through your fields. I have had a case where I "accidentally" parked the bulldozer in the gate a trespasser had to use to get back out. Somehow they are very apologetic when they have no way out. And believe me, with a 10t machine parked in a farm gate not even a plastic will be able to squeeze past.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 02:42:36 pm by Kortbroek »
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Offline Bappas

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2016, 02:42:50 pm »
Passing trafic adds to security for the farmer as well. I do not thing they would like to see it that way.
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Offline JC

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2016, 02:44:09 pm »
So do farm murderers and stock thieves turn around at a locked gate?

 

Offline 1190

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2016, 02:44:15 pm »
Closing off a public roads is illegal.....You cannot justify doing this because the SAPS are not doing there job. Imaging if everybody had this mentality nobody would be able to go anywhere.....Locking gates are not going to stop farm murders or livestock theft, nobody sleeps with there houses unlocked and people get robbed and murdered every day of the week in SA. That being said I would never break open a locked gate, I would report it to the police and let them take the necessary action if need be..... Taking the law into your own hands and destroying other peoples property just perpetuates lawlessness...
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Offline dirtyXT

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2016, 02:47:30 pm »
So do farm murderers and stock thieves turn around at a locked gate?


:imaposer: :laughing4: now that is sharp.
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Online Kortbroek

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2016, 02:50:03 pm »
Closing off a public roads is illegal.....

There are legal ways of doing this, such as forming/joining a conservancy, establishing a security corridor etc. If all land owners agree then you can apply to legally put a gate/boom across a public road. If it is a major road/thoroughfare then your application will fail of course, but in rural areas on seldom used roads the biggest challenge is getting all the land owners on board. How do you think secure neighborhoods are established?
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Online Kortbroek

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2016, 02:52:37 pm »
So do farm murderers and stock thieves turn around at a locked gate?


:imaposer: :laughing4: now that is sharp.

No, but your average thieve won't steal a ton of tools if he can't drive up to the shed. Also, regarding murders, if everyone (locals) know the road is closed/controlled then you automatically notice out of place vehicles. Can potentially prevent a murder or lead to suspects being caught.
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Offline RobC

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2016, 02:54:00 pm »
My advice... be nice and leave the lock alone. The land owner has 100000 valid reasons why it is so.
 

Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2016, 03:09:52 pm »
Read back, most of these roads are not public roads anymore and are not serviced either anymore. Many of the properties involved are not inhabited, so if left open criminals have all the time in the world to do their thing. If the roads department does not have record of a specific road being part of the public network, how can it be public? We are not talking about big public roads. The roads in question in most cases are nothing more than a tweespoor road, but it used to give access to a property at the back or whatever, but they were open for anyone to use in years gone by. Many roads have been de-commissioned to save on maintenance for the province, yet they still appear on most maps.

The single biker that comes through on a road every third year can definitely not contribute to the safety of the farmer. In 99% of cases, firearms and vehicles are stolen in farm attacks and by locking gates the escape routes are blocked. Same goes for the odd bakkie that comes around to load 15 sheep without me even knowing they are on my farm. Even if left unlocked, most of these roads will not carry one legitimate vehicle per year, so how will that contribute to security? It is definitely more of a liability than anything else.

Tell me how you guys would have handled it if you were a farmer? A road crosses your property, not the main road everybody uses, but an old tweespoor that used to be a public road. That road still appears on maps, even Garmin, yet nobody uses it except criminals who steal you stock and equipment as well as the odd biker who wants to pass every third year? Will you take the financial loss to allow said biker the joy, or will you lock the gate? In your opinion it is not a public road, the provincial roads department cannot confirm that it is a public road and it is not maintained by them any more. Put your cards on the table.



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Offline RobC

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2016, 03:14:15 pm »
Read back, most of these roads are not public roads anymore and are not serviced either anymore. Many of the properties involved are not inhabited, so if left open criminals have all the time in the world to do their thing. If the roads department does not have record of a specific road being part of the public network, how can it be public? We are not talking about big public roads. The roads in question in most cases are nothing more than a tweespoor road, but it used to give access to a property at the back or whatever, but they were open for anyone to use in years gone by. Many roads have been de-commissioned to save on maintenance for the province, yet they still appear on most maps.

The single biker that comes through on a road every third year can definitely not contribute to the safety of the farmer. In 99% of cases, firearms and vehicles are stolen in farm attacks and by locking gates the escape routes are blocked. Same goes for the odd bakkie that comes around to load 15 sheep without me even knowing they are on my farm. Even if left unlocked, most of these roads will not carry one legitimate vehicle per year, so how will that contribute to security? It is definitely more of a liability than anything else.

Tell me how you guys would have handled it if you were a farmer? A road crosses your property, not the main road everybody uses, but an old tweespoor that used to be a public road. That road still appears on maps, even Garmin, yet nobody uses it except criminals who steal you stock and equipment as well as the odd biker who wants to pass every third year? Will you take the financial loss to allow said biker the joy, or will you lock the gate? In your opinion it is not a public road, the provincial roads department cannot confirm that it is a public road and it is not maintained by them any more. Put your cards on the table.




They do not have any cards Bie... 100% saam met julle in die gesprek.  :thumleft:

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Offline ETS

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2016, 03:18:31 pm »
My advice... be nice and leave the lock alone. The land owner has 100000 valid reasons why it is so.

I fully agree. It is closed for a reason- there are many other roads. This looks like a City vs Platteland argument to me. I know the city people are very "oppit" and expect everything to be as they want it. Buttt in this case- leave our farmers in peace please guys......
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Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2016, 03:29:56 pm »
What does the definition on public roads say?

The National Road Traffic Act, 1996 (NRTA) regulates what is considered a public road for operational purposes.

“public road” means any road, street or thoroughfare or any other place (whether a thoroughfare or not) which is commonly used by the public or any section thereof or to which the public or any section thereof has a right of access, and includes—
 
(a) the verge of any such road, street or thoroughfare;
(b) any bridge, ferry or drift traversed by any such road, street or thoroughfare; and
(c) any other work or object forming part of or connected with or belonging to such road, street or thoroughfare;”
 
“operate on a public road” or any like expression, in relation to a vehicle, means to use or drive a vehicle or to permit a vehicle to be used or driven on a public road, or to have or to permit a vehicle to be on a public road;”
 
The definition of a public road is not linked to the “ownership” or maintenance of a road, parking area, etc. but to the common use or right of use by the public of a road. 
 
A person, who wants to argue that a road is private, to avoid prosecution or prohibit a traffic officer from enforcing the law on such road, would therefore have to prove that a road has access control or members of the public do not use such road.  This is generally difficult to prove.  In terms of decided cases, very few roads are considered private.
 
In a specific case, even the fact that a mine displayed a sign stating that a road is private and prohibiting the public from using it was not sufficient to regard the road as private, due to the fact that the mine did nothing to ensure the road was not used by the public.


So, if the public does not generally use the road over my farm and there is access control in the form of a locked gate, as per the definition, is it still a public road?
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Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2016, 03:42:13 pm »
Read back, most of these roads are not public roads anymore and are not serviced either anymore. Many of the properties involved are not inhabited, so if left open criminals have all the time in the world to do their thing. If the roads department does not have record of a specific road being part of the public network, how can it be public? We are not talking about big public roads. The roads in question in most cases are nothing more than a tweespoor road, but it used to give access to a property at the back or whatever, but they were open for anyone to use in years gone by. Many roads have been de-commissioned to save on maintenance for the province, yet they still appear on most maps.

As ek reg lees dan was die thread nie oorspronklik oor die klein twee spoor servituut paaie nie. Ek stem saam boere het volle reg om hierdie te sluit.

Die oorspronklike vraag is meer oor die groter paaie en hoe om uit te vind of dit 'n publieke pad is of nie.

Ek is seker die Kaptein sal wegbly van die paaie as dit wel servituut of privaat grond of met toestemming toegemaak is.

Dit laat my dink aan die huis eienaars by Brits wat hekke oor die kanaalpaaie bou.  
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 03:47:26 pm by Sláinte Mhaith »
 

Offline THROTTLE JOCKEY

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2016, 03:43:58 pm »
What does the definition on public roads say?

The National Road Traffic Act, 1996 (NRTA) regulates what is considered a public road for operational purposes.

“public road” means any road, street or thoroughfare or any other place (whether a thoroughfare or not) which is commonly used by the public or any section thereof or to which the public or any section thereof has a right of access, and includes—
 
(a) the verge of any such road, street or thoroughfare;
(b) any bridge, ferry or drift traversed by any such road, street or thoroughfare; and
(c) any other work or object forming part of or connected with or belonging to such road, street or thoroughfare;”
 
“operate on a public road” or any like expression, in relation to a vehicle, means to use or drive a vehicle or to permit a vehicle to be used or driven on a public road, or to have or to permit a vehicle to be on a public road;”
 
The definition of a public road is not linked to the “ownership” or maintenance of a road, parking area, etc. but to the common use or right of use by the public of a road. 
 
A person, who wants to argue that a road is private, to avoid prosecution or prohibit a traffic officer from enforcing the law on such road, would therefore have to prove that a road has access control or members of the public do not use such road.  This is generally difficult to prove.  In terms of decided cases, very few roads are considered private.
 
In a specific case, even the fact that a mine displayed a sign stating that a road is private and prohibiting the public from using it was not sufficient to regard the road as private, due to the fact that the mine did nothing to ensure the road was not used by the public.


So, if the public does not generally use the road over my farm and there is access control in the form of a locked gate, as per the definition, is it still a public road?

****Disclaimer*****
I agree with all arguments sated on previous posts.

But I have a question

If you have a UNMANNED LOCKED GATE on a (lets say) I quiet old un-serviced public road are you not restricting free public access and thereby creating a situation where it is no longer a "PUBLIC ROAD"?

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