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Offline TheBear

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2016, 03:48:02 pm »
PS, remember you break locks at your own risk, so rather don't do it if you are not strong or fast.  ;)

He also robs a farmer and a farmer community of security that they thought they had. 
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Offline Kortbroek

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2016, 03:54:22 pm »
Read back, most of these roads are not public roads anymore and are not serviced either anymore. Many of the properties involved are not inhabited, so if left open criminals have all the time in the world to do their thing. If the roads department does not have record of a specific road being part of the public network, how can it be public? We are not talking about big public roads. The roads in question in most cases are nothing more than a tweespoor road, but it used to give access to a property at the back or whatever, but they were open for anyone to use in years gone by. Many roads have been de-commissioned to save on maintenance for the province, yet they still appear on most maps.

As ek reg lees dan was die thread nie oorspronklik oor die klein twee spoor servituut paaie nie. Ek stem saam boere het volle reg om hierdie te sluit.

Die oorspronklike vraag is meer oor die groter paaie en hoe om uit te vind of dit 'n publieke pad is of nie.

Ek is seker die Kaptein sal wegbly van die paaie as dit wel servituut of privaat grond of met toestemming toegemaak is.

Dit laat my dink aan die huis eienaars by Brits wat hekke oor die kanaalpaaie bou.  


Net omdat 'n pad in stand gehou word beteken dit nie dit is 'n publieke pad nie. Baie boere onderhou hulle toegangspaaie.

Ek dink die OP moet vir ons 'n location van die pad/hekke stuur dan sal mens beter kan verstaan.
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Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2016, 03:57:42 pm »
What does the definition on public roads say?

The National Road Traffic Act, 1996 (NRTA) regulates what is considered a public road for operational purposes.

“public road” means any road, street or thoroughfare or any other place (whether a thoroughfare or not) which is commonly used by the public or any section thereof or to which the public or any section thereof has a right of access, and includes—
 
(a) the verge of any such road, street or thoroughfare;
(b) any bridge, ferry or drift traversed by any such road, street or thoroughfare; and
(c) any other work or object forming part of or connected with or belonging to such road, street or thoroughfare;”
 
“operate on a public road” or any like expression, in relation to a vehicle, means to use or drive a vehicle or to permit a vehicle to be used or driven on a public road, or to have or to permit a vehicle to be on a public road;”
 
The definition of a public road is not linked to the “ownership” or maintenance of a road, parking area, etc. but to the common use or right of use by the public of a road. 
 
A person, who wants to argue that a road is private, to avoid prosecution or prohibit a traffic officer from enforcing the law on such road, would therefore have to prove that a road has access control or members of the public do not use such road.  This is generally difficult to prove.  In terms of decided cases, very few roads are considered private.
 
In a specific case, even the fact that a mine displayed a sign stating that a road is private and prohibiting the public from using it was not sufficient to regard the road as private, due to the fact that the mine did nothing to ensure the road was not used by the public.


So, if the public does not generally use the road over my farm and there is access control in the form of a locked gate, as per the definition, is it still a public road?

****Disclaimer*****
I agree with all arguments sated on previous posts.

But I have a question

If you have a UNMANNED LOCKED GATE on a (lets say) I quiet old un-serviced public road are you not restricting free public access and thereby creating a situation where it is no longer a "PUBLIC ROAD"?

Exactly my opinion too. Seems there is two criteria to be met. If road is (1) not commonly used by the public (say to gain access to their house for instance) and you (2) lock a gate to prevent public access, it is not a public road anymore. That is how I read the definition.
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Offline TheBear

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2016, 03:58:08 pm »
So do farm murderers and stock thieves turn around at a locked gate?



No they don't, but ....
.... when being chased by the local SAPS, local Farmer's Safety Group, etc. they can get trapped in an area. 
..... good locks indicate something to the patrols.  Broken locks something else.
.... unlocked gates can be left open.  My cattle walks through and chows your crops.

The list goes on. 
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Offline 1190

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2016, 04:14:06 pm »
Suburban boom gates policy approved
NEWS/SOUTH-AFRICA/GAUTENG /
03 February 2014 at 10:02am
By: ANNA COX
Johannesburg -

Joburg motorists visiting suburbs with boomed-off areas can no longer be forced to sign in or identify themselves before entering public roads.

A new policy for road closures was approved by the City of Joburg last week. The policy becomes effective within 30 days.

 

Residents of suburbs, particularly in wealthy areas, began closing off public roads with boom gates in 2001 following increasing incidents of crime.

An initial policy was formulated in 2003 but was never approved. Instead, the Johannesburg Roads Agency (JRA) dealt with applications on a case-by-case basis.

According to the new policy:

* No electronic devices such as remote controls may be used.

* One gate has to be manned 24-hours a day, with full, free vehicular and pedestrian access; other gates may have limited hours of operation, but need to be accessible 24 hours a day.

* A resident who chooses not to be a part of the group may not be prejudiced in any way.

* All gates must have 24-hour pedestrian access with wheelchair accessibility and, in case of an emergency, all gates must be able to open.

* Security staff can only monitor activity – they may not search vehicles or people, or ask them to fill in a register or ask for any personal information, nor may security staff cause delay for other motorists.

* No private lock can be placed on these gates; and

* Plans for closures have to be submitted, and proper warning signs have to be erected.

In addition, time frames have now been put in place for almost every step of the procedure, which is likely to facilitate approvals that, in the past, were delayed for years.

In the past, the road closure issue has caused divisions among communities, with unhappy residents breaking down booms with their cars in protest

In Malanshof, where non-paying residents are refused a remote control to some gates, the community is constantly at war

The JRA started tearing down some of the booms around 2004, much to the fury of residents who claimed they had a right to protect themselves.

The JRA then agreed to allow those already boomed off to remain closed, though the applications were never formally approved. The JRA says there are about 350 closures in the city.

“Anyone who fails to enter into, or contravenes the terms and conditions of the policy or neglects to remove illegal structures becomes subject to the Promotion of Administrative Justice Act, and the closures will be removed in terms of the road and other by-laws,” said JRA spokesman Sam Modiba.

DA transport spokesman Nico de Jager said the new policy was more user-friendly than before with clear time frames that even the SAPS must abide by. If they fail to, the applications can go ahead.

“In the past, an application could take months and even years to be concluded, often due to lack of co-operation from the SAPS. Applicants were required to submit a very costly traffic impact study when they first applied, as well as when they reapplied. In terms of the revised policy, such a study will no longer be required on reapplication.

“Although residents should not be seen as living in pockets, creating a further divide between rich and poor, there can also be no price on the right to feeling safe in one’s home,” said De Jager.
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Offline Captain Obvious

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2016, 04:14:33 pm »
As I started this I would like to comment on a few things.

Firstly I have never ridden on a road that is obviously an access road to a farm or portion thereof. Nor have I entered where a sign indicates private property or similar. Tweespoor type roads are to me obviously private.

Asking the farmer about the road is impossible in many instances as you have to enter a locked gate or pass a sign to get to the farm house.

Mybproblem lies with roads that to the best of my knowledge are proclaimed and generally lie between two larger roads. Farmers on either end use the section leading to the closest road. The farmer in the middle then locks the gate on either end of his property.
He has now theoretically created a private road as the public no longer has access. However this is a chicken and egg scenario as had he not locked the gates in the first instance the public would still have had access.

At this point I feel the farmer is acting illegally, but also understand the concerns raised by farmers in this thread. As to the solution I have no idea.
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Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2016, 04:23:17 pm »
The definition uses the term "commonly used", so if someone uses the road once a month it can hardly be regarded "commonly used". If the farmer then locks the gate to prevent further access, it is by definition not a public road any more and if you break his locks you are breaking and entering. Correct me if I am wrong.
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Offline Andre E

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2016, 04:24:25 pm »
If a road is in disuse the minister may be petitioned to change it's proclamation. It needs to be published, and all interested parties may object, including pedestrians that may use this road.

If you build a private road, and members of the public use it for 10 years or longer, it is now a public road.

If you put a gate across a public road, for whatever reason, you are doing it unlawfully. Granting permission for a gate over a public road is granted very seldom, mostly to game reserves or hunting farms with dangerous animals.

My father's neighbour (well known EL business man) tried gating a servitude road. Got his ass handed to him in 5 court cases. You can find the cases if you google Els vs Krull.
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Offline Andre E

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2016, 04:25:40 pm »
The definition uses the term "commonly used", so if someone uses the road once a month it can hardly be regarded "commonly used". If the farmer then locks the gate to prevent further access, it is by definition not a public road any more and if you break his locks you are breaking and entering. Correct me if I am wrong.

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Offline TheBear

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2016, 04:27:51 pm »
At this point I feel the farmer is acting illegally, but also understand the concerns raised by farmers in this thread. As to the solution I have no idea.

It is indeed a conundrum.  One I didn't understand until I saw the issue on my uncles farm in real life.  It is aggravated by the modern maps we have.   It shows pretty much all roads and do not differentiate between private and public.  See pic below.  This is the area of my uncle's farm.  The bits I did in blue is public roads.  The rest are private.  No way to see that on the Garmap version I am using.  Some of those private roads are in a much better condition than the public roads as well.



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Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2016, 04:28:02 pm »
The definition uses the term "commonly used", so if someone uses the road once a month it can hardly be regarded "commonly used". If the farmer then locks the gate to prevent further access, it is by definition not a public road any more and if you break his locks you are breaking and entering. Correct me if I am wrong.

Verkeerd, jammer.

Ons praat nie van hekke opsit enige plek op 'n bestaande pad nie, ons almal weet dis verkeerd. Ons praat van bestaande hekke, op ondergeskikte paaie wat nooit of bykans nooit gebruik word nie. Hoe lees jy die definisie?
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Offline Andre E

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2016, 04:33:57 pm »
The definition uses the term "commonly used", so if someone uses the road once a month it can hardly be regarded "commonly used". If the farmer then locks the gate to prevent further access, it is by definition not a public road any more and if you break his locks you are breaking and entering. Correct me if I am wrong.

Verkeerd, jammer.

Ons praat nie van hekke opsit enige plek op 'n bestaande pad nie, ons almal weet dis verkeerd. Ons praat van bestaande hekke, op ondergeskikte paaie wat nooit of bykans nooit gebruik word nie. Hoe lees jy die definisie?

Jammer, het jou mislees. Sy reg om 'n slot op te sit is wel betwisbaar, tensy hy die red tape prosedure gevolg het om die pad van publiek na privaat te herproklameer.
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Offline Captain Obvious

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2016, 04:35:41 pm »
Andre E is right imho. A proclaimed road is a road over which a government agency has ownershipnand authority, and theoretically the obligation to carry out maintenance. The road will appear in the asset register of said agency. A.legal process must be followed in the case of deproclamation and same published in the government gazzette.

The number of people using the road, the frequency of use , and the purpose these people use it for, eg to get home or just to drive around aimlessly, has no bearing on the legal status of said road.
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Offline Kortbroek

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2016, 04:38:31 pm »
Suburban boom gates policy approved
NEWS/SOUTH-AFRICA/GAUTENG /
03 February 2014 at 10:02am
By: ANNA COX
Johannesburg -
* No private lock can be placed on these gates; and

This only applies to Jhb of course as it is part of their by laws.
For the rest of the country, Andre E's post is relevant
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Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2016, 04:43:06 pm »
Andre E is right imho. A proclaimed road is a road over which a government agency has ownershipnand authority, and theoretically the obligation to carry out maintenance. The road will appear in the asset register of said agency. A.legal process must be followed in the case of deproclamation and same published in the government gazzette.

The number of people using the road, the frequency of use , and the purpose these people use it for, eg to get home or just to drive around aimlessly, has no bearing on the legal status of said road.

This is exactly the problem in identifying these roads. Many were de classified in order to save on maintenance costs, problem is even the road agencies does not know which were. I have made contact with them myself in determining that and they could not confirm nor deny a specific status. If they don't know, who will, in other words why not lock it. Remember, we are not talking about roads carrying volumes of traffic. Even the road you were locked out on will not carry great volumes, even if unlocked.
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Offline Rossdog

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2016, 05:05:46 pm »
Captain Obvious, how often has this happened to you in your life? Once, twice, 3 times maybe? Look at the bigger picture and TTFU man.

Unless you were a farmer who has suffered stock loss, poaching, farm murders or theft, you wouldn't really understand. If you are determined to ride on a certain road, do some homework and find out who the owners are and get permission. I bet most would be more than obliging. Remember that not all the people who use the road that offended you so much have intentions as honest and transparent as yours. The gate was obviously locked for a reason.
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Offline TheBear

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2016, 05:09:01 pm »
Also, if a farmer do confront you don't be harregat about it.
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Offline masehare

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2016, 05:09:14 pm »
So do farm murderers and stock thieves turn around at a locked gate?



Agreed. What do you achieve in terms of security by locking a gate on a public road? Think about it. By doing so you are only looking for conflict. Now everybody wanting to use the (public) road will be treated like a criminal by the person who locked the gate, as explained by the original poster.
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Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2016, 05:16:04 pm »
So do farm murderers and stock thieves turn around at a locked gate?



Agreed. What do you achieve in terms of security by locking a gate on a public road? Think about it. By doing so you are only looking for conflict. Now everybody wanting to use the (public) road will be treated like a criminal by the person who locked the gate, as explained by the original poster.

That was covered above.
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Offline dirtyXT

Re:
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2016, 05:28:43 pm »
Ok. So i recon a farmer has more than enough justification and reasoning to lock a gate in this worst case scenario which is the basis of all examples given. I agree with their reasoning and support that. Maybe within reason needs to be hashed out more so that every single farmer DOES NOT  lock everything everywhere for anyone be a valid risk or not. How about where a locked gate on a known road to areas that are public and could be occasionally used by joe public have a mandatory sign explaining the reasoning and should passge be required a solution. And im not talking 3 bold lines in emergency red either. Something that would compell traveller good cause to respect the farmers concerns. Then there is strong enough reason to persecute? Isn't that a workable solution where everyone wins something?

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