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Offline masehare

Re:
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2016, 05:35:39 pm »
Ok. So i recon a farmer has more than enough justification and reasoning to lock a gate in this worst case scenario which is the basis of all examples given. I agree with their reasoning and support that. Maybe within reason needs to be hashed out more so that every single farmer DOES NOT  lock everything everywhere for anyone be a valid risk or not. How about where a locked gate on a known road to areas that are public and could be occasionally used by joe public have a mandatory sign explaining the reasoning and should passge be required a solution. And im not talking 3 bold lines in emergency red either. Something that would compell traveller good cause to respect the farmers concerns. Then there is strong enough reason to persecute? Isn't that a workable solution where everyone wins something?

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Yup, I propose putting a locked gate on the R355 on the Ceres side where the dirt starts. This should provide enough security to all the farmers North of that. Where do you stop?

Another problem here is farmers/businesses putting up gates for more sinister reasons, thus making the idea more unpopular among the general population. I'm talking about the gate at Botelierskop for example.
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Offline dirtyXT

Re:
« Reply #61 on: May 16, 2016, 05:39:13 pm »
Well suppose we need something in a it for the farmere other than kindness to get farmers into that. Problem would be many farmers one or two herioc bikers exploring every third year. Ah well was a nice thought

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #62 on: May 16, 2016, 05:48:47 pm »
A friend has a public road that splits his farm in half. Last year 200 lambs were stolen off his farm by night travelers/thieves. The road is never used by Joe Public only the farmers and the thieves. 200 adult lambs stolen, go do the math. This was in a drought period when he was feeding them too. :(
Because of this and people leaving gates open we will be running into locked gates more and more.
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Offline Captain Obvious

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2016, 06:24:41 pm »
Bie, I think we can agree to disagree.

If the government is unsure of the status of the road, then the farmer feels justified in locking it.

However by the same token a rider may feel justified in using it.

This leaves me a bit red faced, as I was quite sure that this road was still proclaimed, and perhaps the farmer was quite sure of the opposite.

I am still not sure of the solution, but will definitely think it through a bit more.
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Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2016, 06:35:39 pm »
No problem CO, like I said in my very first response, I can understand your frustration, but believe me that gate was not locked without a reason.

When I was a kid none of the roads I have locked now were ever locked. They were graded by the authorities and probably used a few times a year by people other than my father without any problems what so ever. For about the last 20 years they were not maintained at all and I maintain them at my own cost to get access to said property. As the road's condition deteriorated, the amount of other traffic reduced to the point where only myself and those with criminal intent used the road. You would see the vehicle tracks showing where they stopped, etc. Similar to the OP this road used to be a link between two bigger roads, maybe 5km shorter, but with 12 gates on this "shortcut". The alternative road is a much bigger road, in good condition and maintained by the province, also no gates, so "my road" fell in total disuse. I started losing livestock and solar panels were stolen on two occasions along that road because it was completely secluded and anyone could drive the 20 odd km to where he could load 15 sheep. At that point I contacted the roads department in PE to get clarification on the road status, but although the road was indicated on their map it was not even numbered and did not reflect on their system at all, so the gates were locked and will remain locked. I did not apply to have the road scrapped as there is no number to identify it by.

This is not an isolated case. Most if not all the smaller roads does not even feature on their system anymore. In many cases farmers take a collective decision to lock a gate and those using the road either each put their own lock on the chain, or get a key to the lock. Nobody has any business there, so why should they get access at my expense? There is a very good, actually much better alternative road that can be used, but it seems as if some regard their right to recreation of higher value than that of the landowner. Remember on these smaller roads the road reserves are not fenced, you ride right through camps with livestock. Farms are agricultural factories, our ewes is our equipment, lambs, wool and mohair the product we "manufacture". Would you be happy to have anyone have access to ride or walk right through your factory at the dead of night, just to take a shortcut? Surely not, that is why we lock our factory doors if at all possible, even if it may be considered illegal by some.
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Offline Sparky

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2016, 06:37:25 pm »
Bie, I think we can agree to disagree.

If the government is unsure of the status of the road, then the farmer feels justified in locking it.

However by the same token a rider may feel justified in using it.

This leaves me a bit red faced, as I was quite sure that this road was still proclaimed, and perhaps the farmer was quite sure of the opposite.

I am still not sure of the solution, but will definitely think it through a bit more.

We had a farm in the Stwartland/Sandveld. There was a road going through our farm that showed up on maps as a "public road". This was actually not the case, as the maps were outdated( going back to the 40's)

The road was locked by us for all the reasons stated in previous posts. Until the glider crowd discovered Dasklip pass. They tried to access the road to pick up their mates. Cut locks, left gates open etc.

We had a few of them arrested for trespassing. And it stuck.

My advice would be.... make damn sure you have the land owners permission before you go onto an unknown road. And don't break locks.
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Offline eberhard

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2016, 06:58:55 pm »
Ethekwini Municipality v Brooks (411/09) [2010] ZASCA 74 (27 May 2010)

"Mrs Brooks launched an application in the KZN High Court,
Durban against the municipality (as first respondent in the court below),
seeking, inter alia, an order declaring that the servitude of right of way
over her property does not create a public street as defined in the Ordinance"


"[4] The high court rejected the municipality’s contentions and
granted an order in favour of Mrs Brooks, hence this appeal, which is
before us with leave granted by the court below.
A public street
[5] The answer to the dispute between the parties must be sought in
the definition of ‘public street’ as defined in s 1 of the Ordinance,
namely, as ‘any street which –
(a) has been established by a local authority or other competent authority as a
public street;
(b) has been taken over by or vested in a local authority as a public street in
terms of any law;
(c) the public has acquired the right to use; or
4
(d) which is shown on a general plan or diagram of any private township situate
in the area of a local authority filed in the Deeds Registry or the Surveyor-
General’s Office and to which the owners of erven or lots in such township
have a common right of use.’"

"Order
[38] The appeal is dismissed with costs."


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Offline Tampan

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2016, 07:08:55 pm »
I'm a farmer, and I'm a biker. I've encountered locked gates on rarely used public roads and it surely pissed me off, but I chose to turn around and use an alternative route, which is normally available and also the regular used route in the area. Not my first choice at all, but so be it.

I've luckily not had that many stock thefts and I farm in areas not known to be a high risk in terms of farm murders or general security issues. That said, I have roads running through both farms, both not in regular public use, but regardless, both causes endless k@k. To such an extent that I fenced off the one road, losing more than 240ha of my farm in the process and you can imagine the cost involved. The issue with the odd user, especially hunters during winter made the situation unbearable and I lost many live stock, dying of thirst!
With the second road, I unfortunately do not have the option to lock the gates, but I'm seriously considering locking them from 6pm to 6am and putting up signs at both ends, warning users about this.

Thieves and murderers surely don't turn back at a locked gate, but I can assure you, only one ready and alert farmer on such a road will have them avoid it, if they can. So will anything else, like locked gates, that they know will slow them down in a getaway or make them stop, even if only temporarily. They will avoid attracting attention at all cost.
If they caused trouble, they always try to get to the closest tar road and town and they do not choose "difficult" routes to take them there.

We're living in a rather lawless country, with most of society having lost just about all respect for anything and anybody. Nobody really cares and everything goes. In many cases, farmers do not get any cooperation or help from the from the people who are suppose to apply the law. They are left on their own and have to act and do something themselves, to solve these issues. If the only way is to lock a gate, I sort of respect that. Many farmers deal with security and stock theft issues on a daily basis and they're pretty much on their own in terms of trying to stop this.
I know of a few who close roads only to be spiteful, but they're definitely the minority.

The solution, in my humble opinion? Find out beforehand whether a route is open and if you can't reach anybody, just use a regular route or road. There are many remote, seldom used roads that are open and to expect all to be open all the time is probably not wrong, but some mutual respect will do.

I bet ya, next time you ride a road where you previously popped some locks, you can expect a much more substantial challenge, so do take some serious pooping tools along - I know farmers... :biggrin:
 

Offline Ama ride ride

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2016, 07:23:11 pm »
Farmers should put up a sign at a strategic spot with a contact nr where they inform potential road users that they locked a certain gate.

I also grew up on a farm and have many friends who are still farming so I am well aware why they lock gates.
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Offline Bie

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2016, 08:01:46 pm »
Will never put my number on a board like that.
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Offline TheBear

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2016, 08:04:24 pm »
Will never put my number on a board like that.

You could always put the number of the WD who irritated you the most during the previous week.   :lol8:
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Offline Sabre

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2016, 08:18:49 pm »
Read back, most of these roads are not public roads anymore and are not serviced either anymore. Many of the properties involved are not inhabited, so if left open criminals have all the time in the world to do their thing. If the roads department does not have record of a specific road being part of the public network, how can it be public? We are not talking about big public roads. The roads in question in most cases are nothing more than a tweespoor road, but it used to give access to a property at the back or whatever, but they were open for anyone to use in years gone by. Many roads have been de-commissioned to save on maintenance for the province, yet they still appear on most maps.

The single biker that comes through on a road every third year can definitely not contribute to the safety of the farmer. In 99% of cases, firearms and vehicles are stolen in farm attacks and by locking gates the escape routes are blocked. Same goes for the odd bakkie that comes around to load 15 sheep without me even knowing they are on my farm. Even if left unlocked, most of these roads will not carry one legitimate vehicle per year, so how will that contribute to security? It is definitely more of a liability than anything else.

Tell me how you guys would have handled it if you were a farmer? A road crosses your property, not the main road everybody uses, but an old tweespoor that used to be a public road. That road still appears on maps, even Garmin, yet nobody uses it except criminals who steal you stock and equipment as well as the odd biker who wants to pass every third year? Will you take the financial loss to allow said biker the joy, or will you lock the gate? In your opinion it is not a public road, the provincial roads department cannot confirm that it is a public road and it is not maintained by them any more. Put your cards on the table.




Exactly the way you guys are doing it, maybe more. When it comes to my life, my family's welfare, and, ultimately, the welfare of the country, I will protect my property with every available means
Viva farmers, viva !!!
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Offline ktmmer

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2016, 08:26:17 pm »
Donshael
 

Offline KarooKid

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2016, 08:29:27 pm »
Did you know that if Mr A comes down the road and hits Mr. B's cow who is dawdling across the road, Mr B is responsible even if Mr. C left the gate open?

This statement is not correct in law!
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Offline wobbler

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2016, 08:39:08 pm »
Last spring I went on a west coast trip to go look at the spring flowers.
Carmen in the Garmin said I can go x way so off I went.
I immediately knew I was entering a farm and treated it accordingly - slow down, leave gates as you found them and stop and chat to the farmer.
I was welcomed onto his farm but was warned that his neighbour locks his gates as he had an entire camp full of lambs escape onto a neighbouring farm and we'd get a frosty reception.
All this over a cup of tea on his stoep.
He was happy to explain an alternate route and drove along from his farm until we got onto the new route.
What a lekker guy!

Moral of the story is that if you take the time, they will too.
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Offline TheBear

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2016, 08:54:05 pm »
Did you know that if Mr A comes down the road and hits Mr. B's cow who is dawdling across the road, Mr B is responsible even if Mr. C left the gate open?

This statement is not correct in law!

I may not have the wording spot-on, but the gist is correct as I understand it and my understanding is based on a case won by a the wife of a Think Bike member whose husband died after hitting a cow in the road with his bike.
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Offline Captain Obvious

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2016, 08:54:36 pm »
Here is an example of one guy who believe he has all the right and everyone has none.
As a farmer I say A hole!
Kom breek my slotte.
As my last contribution to the subject I need to say that despite all the fine and reasoned arguments presented here , it was this contribution that made me see the error of my ways.

 Thank you sir for your insightful analysis into my character.
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Offline JC

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2016, 09:30:37 pm »
Here is an example of one guy who believe he has all the right and everyone has none.
As a farmer I say A hole!
Kom breek my slotte.
As my last contribution to the subject I need to say that despite all the fine and reasoned arguments presented here , it was this contribution that made me see the error of my ways.

 Thank you sir for your insightful analysis into my character.
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Offline RobC

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Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2016, 10:20:50 pm »
Last spring I went on a west coast trip to go look at the spring flowers.
Carmen in the Garmin said I can go x way so off I went.
I immediately knew I was entering a farm and treated it accordingly - slow down, leave gates as you found them and stop and chat to the farmer.
I was welcomed onto his farm but was warned that his neighbour locks his gates as he had an entire camp full of lambs escape onto a neighbouring farm and we'd get a frosty reception.
All this over a cup of tea on his stoep.
He was happy to explain an alternate route and drove along from his farm until we got onto the new route.
What a lekker guy!

Moral of the story is that if you take the time, they will too.
Respect is a 2 way street.
On the way to Neu Bethesda from Rusoord farm where MM was held part of the route was on the farm adjacent through 5 gates... at gate 2 the guy in the Bolero behind me said he was the farmer and I could leave the gates open, when I got to the farmhouse I stopped for a good chinwag. He had no stock in the paddocks we had driven through so was not worried about the open gates. Gave me excellent directions to the Owl House. He was very appreciative about me insisting to close the gates I had passed through. "Baie anner jaag sommer deur..." Be respectful folks, you meet some interesting people that way. :thumleft:
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Farmers closing roads
« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2016, 10:34:00 pm »
Farmers seem to be aggro people

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