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Offline Dakar wanabe

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KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« on: June 01, 2016, 01:44:14 pm »
OK,

As my bike are being stripped and completely overhauled (big end seizure), I did some research and found out that there are some big bore cc kits out for the KLE 500 (or the ER5, GPZ 500 etc). Engine dynamics in the USA have two kits available a 540cc and a 600cc kit, they also do upgrades to the valves and head.

Below is some comparisons with standard and over size. All measurements are rounded for practical reasons.

Standard piston size: 74mm
Standard oversize: 74,5mm
Standard compression ratio: 9,8:1

Standard valve sizes: Exhaust - 24mm, Intake - 28,5mm

The Engine Dynamics site have the following:

540cc kit: 77mm piston, compression ratio of 11,5:1 (standard cylinder sleeve can still be used)
600cc kit: 81mm piston, compression ratio of 12:1 (new cylinder sleeve must be installed, there is ample space to accommodate a larger diameter bore)

Engine Dynamics valves: Exhaust - 25mm, Intake - 30,5mm

Does not know what the figures are of the upgraded bore kits, although it would be very interesting!!

I have also found that there are a lot of the Kawasaki models that share the same engine parts. The 2 cyclinder KLE is in fact half of the 4 cylinder ZX1000. I am waiting for more info on the correct piston crown height for some of the ZX, ZZR and even Z models, if they are the same as the KLE then ALL of the mentioned models pistons would work, if their piston pin are the same diameter, std KLE pin is 18mm

I also have a set of old valves that can be used to experiment regarding the sizing of the valves, as the head must also be reworked.

I know that the engine must be properly tuned to get the best results and it must be done with great care, but this has opened up a whole new possibility for me. I have acquired a Honda XL700V Transalp, so the KLE would now be my official project bike  :biggrin: :biggrin: (the TA XXL700V have a 81mm piston with a 18mm piston pin)

I am going to get more info from the engineering company that is doing this for me, had a lengthy discussion with them last week in doing this conversion. I need to take the parts to him so that he can measure it and advise accordingly.

Will keep you posted as I trot along this path.
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Offline SmuGS

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Re: KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2016, 02:34:32 pm »
 :sip:
Nee wat vlekkelose ek kuier op my lekkerste tussen die rokers,dronkgatte,vloekers,hoere en ander sondaars  :imaposer:
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Online dirtyXT

Re: KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2016, 02:53:07 pm »
 :sip: now this is going to be interesting.
Bike history:
Ital jet 50 - sold, DT 50 - scrapped - AR80 - sold DT185 - confiscated  KDX250 - sold ZZR400 - sold KX500 - XT660R Swapped for R1 YZF R1 - sold - XT660Z - sold

 

Offline Shaun500

Re:
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2016, 04:19:53 pm »
Apparently the EX/GPZ/ER engine has the potential to develop about 65 hp in full race tune.   The KLE is only tuned for about 45 hp.  Remember the cams, ignition timing, jetting,  air box are different on the GPZ/ER engine.  Looks the same externally but different under the skin.  The cams on the KLE are mildly tuned for more low down grunt as opposed to the EX/GPZ/ER which develops it's power much higher up the rev range. http://www.ex-500.com/ is a good source of information for this engine.

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Offline Dakar wanabe

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Re: KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2016, 10:10:35 am »
I know that the ER/GPZ engines are (where) developed for a totally different market and that the cams etc are more road / race orientated. This configuration would be useless in the KLE, where you want some low down grunt, not sure about the gearing but sure that is also not the same.

But, with this all in mind, the cylinder block, pistons and head (excluding the cams) are exactly the same in all of these engines.

All that I would be doing in essence is to enlarge the capacity of the engine and to make use of the full potential that is available of these engines. Surely reliability is of a big concern, but keeping in mind that these are relative "cheap" entry level racing bikes (gpz etc), the reliability is of great importance for these racers as most of them probably are racer / mechanic anyway and on a tight budget.

If we look on the bright side of this experiment we can increase the power of the KLE tremendously and within safe engine parameters and tolerances.

IMHO, if these upgrades are done correctly and the engine is tuned correctly with a new full exhaust system with equal length headers and proper carburetor setup, this would be awesome!!!

Maybe some other modifications would be necessary along the way, but I am sure it would be worthwhile in the end.
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Offline LRFan

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Re: KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2016, 12:22:36 pm »
Maybe an oil cooler to help with temp's and extra fan for radiator??
 

Offline Dakar wanabe

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Re: KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2016, 02:48:13 pm »
An oil cooler would be a good idea. The fan already takes up a lot of space on the radiator. Maybe a bigger or more efficient cooling system?
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Offline lecap

Re: KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2016, 12:11:40 pm »
Issues:
You won't be able to run much more than 10:1 compression ratio with petrol station spec fuel. Higher compression ratios will require higher octane rating fuels like special high octane racing fuels or 100LL Avgas.
You might work your way around this by decking the piston but you will have to check carefully how much you can take off the dome without losing the structural integrity of the piston.
Modifying the combustion chamber to reduce the compression ratio is complex and comes with its own problems (shape changes especially removing squish edges might reduce turbulence and result in poorer performance).
Reducing the compression ratio by fitting two base gaskets or a thicker head gasket is not feasible due to the engines DOHC design.

Performance gain can be achieved by:
Increased compression ratio: See above.
Increased charge: Less pumping losses, less intake flow resistance. Everything from a free flow pipe via larger valves, higher lift and/ or longer duration cams, optimised cylinder head ports, larger diameter or less restrictive (slide) carbs, performance air filter.
Increased RPM.

Charge improvements are difficult to achieve in a modern naturally aspirated engine.

Increased RPM is the easiest to achieve. You basically have 20% better performance if you can burn the same charge at a 20% higher engine speed. "The same charge" is the tricky bit. You will have to do a lot (cams, valve sizes, porting, exhaust, carb) to achieve this.


At the end of the day you will spend a lot and end up with a rev hungry road bike type engine with a flat bottom end and unimpressive mid range.
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Online dirtyXT

Re:
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2016, 05:59:16 pm »
Boom. Party spoiled now?

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Bike history:
Ital jet 50 - sold, DT 50 - scrapped - AR80 - sold DT185 - confiscated  KDX250 - sold ZZR400 - sold KX500 - XT660R Swapped for R1 YZF R1 - sold - XT660Z - sold

 

Offline Dakar wanabe

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Re: KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2016, 09:58:41 am »
I do not think that by increasing the engine's capacity that there would be any issues within the power range. By increasing the cylinder volume, and even the valves, more air/fuel mixture will accumulate in the combustion chamber, giving an increase in power, the bigger valves would let the gasses (air/fuel mixture & exhaust) flow more efficient in and out of the motor. I can not foresee that there would be any issues other then increased power. The cams etc would still be standard from the KLE, I would think that there would be a MASSIVE increase in low down grunt, but top end would remain relative unchanged, due to the standard KLE gear ratios.

The cams on the KLE is designed to open and close at a certain height and duration, this gives the motor the low down power a dual purpose bike needs and a relative "dead" top end. The GPZ/ER5 etc have a very different cam configuration, giving it a much better mid to top end performance, where it would be more use full on road bikes. Like I said before, the KLE, GPZ, ER5 etc engines are identical, with only the cams that are different, better optimized exhaust and the timing is setup differently.
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Offline See Duiwel

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Re: KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2016, 09:27:59 pm »
sub
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Offline lecap

Re: KLE 500 BIG upgrade
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2016, 02:31:34 pm »
Ok, let's try this again:

You go from 500cc to 600cc which ideally wopuld mean you gain 20% power from 20% more cylinder cross section IF you can manage to keep the average combustion pressure the same and IF your larger piston plus rings and gudgeon pin have the same mass.

You will loose if you can't fill your 20% larger cylinders at the same rate which will require quite some work. I would say larger valves (which comes with its own nasty problems in form of cracked cylinder heads) and a bit of work on the shape of the ports to make the larger valve seats flow nicely.
You will likely also have to work a bit on carb jetting and possibly find larger diameter carbs.
I would not worry too much about the exhaust manifold and slencer. Not much besides noise can be found here unless you go into the all out race track levels of performance.

On your shopping list you have:
two piston kits customized to reduce compression ratio,
two cylinders to de - sleeve, machine and fit with custom made sleeves, bore and hone,
a custom made head gasket,
a custom made base gasket,
massive cylinder head engineering, remove eight valve seats, machine head, make and fit eight valve seats, port, fit eight larger valves,
...

If you do a good job and are really lucky you will have gained 9hp. Chances are good that your cylinder size, port shape, valve and carb size will not work as harmoniously as OEM so I'd expect maybe a plus of 5hp or 6hp.


It is piss easy in comparison to replace the KLE's cylinder head with one belonging to a GPZ500. Yes you will likely loose a bit of bottom end and mid range but as far as I could see everything else (pistons and carb size) is the same and you upgrade from 45hp to 60hp.
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur." (Red Adair)