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Author Topic: Why not 93 Octane  (Read 3552 times)

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Offline volroom

Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2016, 04:20:57 pm »
i have been using 93 here in gauteng on my 2015 lc for 20000 k and have not found any problems. I did a bit of reserch on the net and test done overseas in a controled inviroment came up with the conclusion that save your money and use 93

Your bike will have a bit less power.

Out of interest, the test done overseas, what was the altitude, octane fuel tested, type of engine, compression of engine, ambient temp, air pressure? Those things all make a huge difference to the fuel consumption and power.
should be the case, you ignition timing will be retarded more often than when using 95RON. LC compression ratio is 12.5:1, knocking starts around 10.5:1, depending on altitude, temp and combustion chamber design, and others I'd imagine. I run my R1150GS with compression ratio of 10.3:1 on 95RON, and it's recommended. rather run the LC on 95..
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Offline RobC

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2016, 04:25:56 pm »
Thank goodness my KLR does not care... it's like a Ratel, it just keeps running as long as it gets petrol in the tank. :ricky:
 

Offline Kawasefi

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2016, 04:31:14 pm »
To the OP, do you actually get 93 in the Eastern Cape?

In KZN we only get 95, I though it was the same for all coastal provinces.
 

Offline Antonie

Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2016, 04:16:47 pm »
So far, the reasons are different, but the outcome is the same.  No damage.

My understand (simplistic again) is that the octane number purely indicates the propensity of the fuel to pre-ignite.  The lower the number, the easier petrol pre-ignited.  Pre-ignition leads to pinging.  Pinging is not good as it is an indication that damage could occur. If the ECU can pick up the issue and adjust the ignition timing accordingly, there will be no issue, except a small loss of performance due to the retarded ignition timing.  I am not sure if the bike's ECU  can do this (don't know if there is a knock sensor on a LC), but even if it cannot and it pings, like I said, just don't push it so hard that it continues pinging.

My experience with both our LC's is that they will ping a tad on 93, but only when pushed hard and so far, only on hot (32+) days.

just a comment, I think there is a distinction between pre-ignition and detonation (pinging or knocking). pre-ignition you don't want, a hot spot causes fuel/air mixture to ignite when piston is just starting to come up for compression stroke before spark - pre -spark or ignition- basically against the force of hot expanding gases, heating it even more, you engine won't last very long, hole in piston. this obviously does not happen often, if it happens, good bye pistons. perhaps more an issue in the old days. hot spots can be carbon deposits on exhaust valves or glowing electrode of sparkplug or whatever.

Knocking, detonation or pinging (sounds like shaking a spray can of paint with the metal ball) usually under load (heavy acceleration) happens after ignition (spark), but then due to too much pressure I think, the flame front does not spread from the spark plug down as per usual, but elsewhere in the air/fuel mixture ignition starts - and the two shock waves meet causing a much higher peak pressure for a split second which causes greater vibration. knock sensors pick up this vibration through the engine casing I think, and retard ignition timing. I think the LC should do this, even the early 1200GS had knock sensors. In winter time, knocking less pronounced and don't know if anybody noticed, it's friegen cold

If I hear this noise when starting the bike, is it a problem? It only happens sometimes... What will the cause be?

EDIT: Ok I see that it is too much pressure, but is this something to be concerned about? Why is there only too much pressure 'sometimes'?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 04:19:16 pm by Antonie »
 

Offline TheBear

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2016, 05:02:13 pm »

If I hear this noise when starting the bike, is it a problem? It only happens sometimes... What will the cause be?

EDIT: Ok I see that it is too much pressure, but is this something to be concerned about? Why is there only too much pressure 'sometimes'?

When starting it is more likely that the noise is caused by a lack of oil on some moving parts.  Personally, I don't worry about it as the oil pump quickly gets the oil where it should be.  There is also a rather complex description of the engine starting to turn while the valves are closed, so making compression, or going down with throttle bodies closed, so sucking a "vacuum".  I suppose it could also cause the knock, but although I have read the piece in this phenomena, it still eludes my level of understanding.

Anyway, engines do knock a tad when starting, so generally not worrysome.
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Offline Antonie

Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2016, 05:11:22 pm »

If I hear this noise when starting the bike, is it a problem? It only happens sometimes... What will the cause be?

EDIT: Ok I see that it is too much pressure, but is this something to be concerned about? Why is there only too much pressure 'sometimes'?

When starting it is more likely that the noise is caused by a lack of oil on some moving parts.  Personally, I don't worry about it as the oil pump quickly gets the oil where it should be.  There is also a rather complex description of the engine starting to turn while the valves are closed, so making compression, or going down with throttle bodies closed, so sucking a "vacuum".  I suppose it could also cause the knock, but although I have read the piece in this phenomena, it still eludes my level of understanding.

Anyway, engines do knock a tad when starting, so generally not worrysome.

Thanks Bear!
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Offline TheBear

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2016, 05:22:29 pm »

If I hear this noise when starting the bike, is it a problem? It only happens sometimes... What will the cause be?

EDIT: Ok I see that it is too much pressure, but is this something to be concerned about? Why is there only too much pressure 'sometimes'?

When starting it is more likely that the noise is caused by a lack of oil on some moving parts.  Personally, I don't worry about it as the oil pump quickly gets the oil where it should be.  There is also a rather complex description of the engine starting to turn while the valves are closed, so making compression, or going down with throttle bodies closed, so sucking a "vacuum".  I suppose it could also cause the knock, but although I have read the piece in this phenomena, it still eludes my level of understanding.

Anyway, engines do knock a tad when starting, so generally not worrysome.

Thanks Bear!
 :thumleft:

Our Boxer engines, if parked on the side stand for a longish period, do have an ugly knock when starting.  It is why many Boxer engine bike riders park on the centre stand if the bike is left parked for a few days.
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Offline Antonie

Re: Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2016, 08:13:03 pm »

If I hear this noise when starting the bike, is it a problem? It only happens sometimes... What will the cause be?

EDIT: Ok I see that it is too much pressure, but is this something to be concerned about? Why is there only too much pressure 'sometimes'?

When starting it is more likely that the noise is caused by a lack of oil on some moving parts.  Personally, I don't worry about it as the oil pump quickly gets the oil where it should be.  There is also a rather complex description of the engine starting to turn while the valves are closed, so making compression, or going down with throttle bodies closed, so sucking a "vacuum".  I suppose it could also cause the knock, but although I have read the piece in this phenomena, it still eludes my level of understanding.

Anyway, engines do knock a tad when starting, so generally not worrysome.

Thanks Bear!
 :thumleft:

Our Boxer engines, if parked on the side stand for a longish period, do have an ugly knock when starting.  It is why many Boxer engine bike riders park on the centre stand if the bike is left parked for a few days.
I seldom leave it on the side stand, only when out riding, always on the center stand in the garage. Interesting to know nonetheless.

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Offline sparro

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2016, 08:08:53 pm »
Inland you can run anything on 93 Ulp, only forced induction will benefit noticeably on 95. As someone said earlier, 95 is wasting your money inland.  95 only became available inland in the last 10 yrs or so and the 93 didn't break all the engines inland before...
 

Offline sheldyn

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2016, 09:24:08 pm »
can someone please define "ping" for me.  what do you mean when saying it pings?
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Offline 2wdrift

Re: Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2016, 03:20:05 am »
Inland you can run anything on 93 Ulp, only forced induction will benefit noticeably on 95. As someone said earlier, 95 is wasting your money inland.  95 only became available inland in the last 10 yrs or so and the 93 didn't break all the engines inland before...
I can confirm this. My turbo charged vehicle pings on 93, and the higher the performance/boost the higher the octane required. I broke a piston on mine running it on lower octane than it should have been on.

For normal road vehicles it should not pose too much of an issue, especially if they are fitted with a ECU and sensors to retard the ignition timing a bit.
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Offline Cracker

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2016, 07:45:31 am »
Engines have progressed and so has the fuel - that's why we don't have leaded fuel as well as the old 87 octane.

Retarding the timing to run on 93 is counterproductive - that's why we have 95.

And due to altitude we don't have 98 like those at the coast.
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Offline volroom

Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2016, 08:15:03 am »
So far, the reasons are different, but the outcome is the same.  No damage.

My understand (simplistic again) is that the octane number purely indicates the propensity of the fuel to pre-ignite.  The lower the number, the easier petrol pre-ignited.  Pre-ignition leads to pinging.  Pinging is not good as it is an indication that damage could occur. If the ECU can pick up the issue and adjust the ignition timing accordingly, there will be no issue, except a small loss of performance due to the retarded ignition timing.  I am not sure if the bike's ECU  can do this (don't know if there is a knock sensor on a LC), but even if it cannot and it pings, like I said, just don't push it so hard that it continues pinging.

My experience with both our LC's is that they will ping a tad on 93, but only when pushed hard and so far, only on hot (32+) days.

just a comment, I think there is a distinction between pre-ignition and detonation (pinging or knocking). pre-ignition you don't want, a hot spot causes fuel/air mixture to ignite when piston is just starting to come up for compression stroke before spark - pre -spark or ignition- basically against the force of hot expanding gases, heating it even more, you engine won't last very long, hole in piston. this obviously does not happen often, if it happens, good bye pistons. perhaps more an issue in the old days. hot spots can be carbon deposits on exhaust valves or glowing electrode of sparkplug or whatever.

Knocking, detonation or pinging (sounds like shaking a spray can of paint with the metal ball) usually under load (heavy acceleration) happens after ignition (spark), but then due to too much pressure I think, the flame front does not spread from the spark plug down as per usual, but elsewhere in the air/fuel mixture ignition starts - and the two shock waves meet causing a much higher peak pressure for a split second which causes greater vibration. knock sensors pick up this vibration through the engine casing I think, and retard ignition timing. I think the LC should do this, even the early 1200GS had knock sensors. In winter time, knocking less pronounced and don't know if anybody noticed, it's friegen cold

If I hear this noise when starting the bike, is it a problem? It only happens sometimes... What will the cause be?

EDIT: Ok I see that it is too much pressure, but is this something to be concerned about? Why is there only too much pressure 'sometimes'?

As Bear says, it's complex - the R1200GS has knock sensors, so perhaps when you sometimes start, there is knocking and then the ignition timing is retarded and it goes away. Always run 95Ron, also inland if you can. If you experience it under hard acceleration, perhaps fit a booster plug http://www.boosterplug.com/shop/frontpage.html

for those that did not google:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-defference-between-knocking-and-pre-ignition
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html
https://www.researchgate.net/post/what_is_the_difference_between_knocking_and_detonation_in_internal_combustion_engines

visual depiction: http://fiftyfivenotion.blogspot.co.za/2012_03_01_archive.html
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Offline Ou Krokkedil

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2016, 09:12:09 am »
If you drive into Africa. with your LC like the kortpad people you get fuel that is not even in tanks or certified. this fuel did not break there engines.

You will loose a little bit of power and maybe some km/l but in the end the bike will still run.

Do not overthink this, your bike will not be damaged. you are not racing a high performance forced induction motor that needs racing fuel. when you get to a place where you can fill up with 95 again then fill up.

or

PARK your bike until the fuel strike is over :imaposer:
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Offline Antonie

Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2016, 03:13:42 pm »
Thanks Volroom, I will check out those links.. later, first I have to go to hospital to hear if there is a heartbeat... More about this later!!

Love learning about these things. I am very dumb when it comes to engines etc, but always lekker to get more info.
 

Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2016, 03:49:24 pm »
I must have done more than 30000km inland on my 2008 1200GS without any knocking/pinging/detonating/cavitating or salivating. Note, I did have a wunderlich fuel controller fitted to prevent the bike from running lean.

Our i20 with a 10.5 compression ratio also runs permanently on 93. currently at 120k km
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Offline 2wdrift

Re: Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2016, 05:48:11 pm »
I must have done more than 30000km inland on my 2008 1200GS without any knocking/pinging/detonating/cavitating or salivating. Note, I did have a wunderlich fuel controller fitted to prevent the bike from running lean.

Our i20 with a 10.5 compression ratio also runs permanently on 93. currently at 120k km
The modern engines in both your i20 and BMW have knock sensors that retard ignition timing when you run on a lower octane fuel. Its not a problem.
 I ran my 1190 on 93 and although it sounded a bit different and had a little less power the motor was fine.
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Offline TheBear

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Re: Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2016, 05:57:33 pm »
I must have done more than 30000km inland on my 2008 1200GS without any knocking/pinging/detonating/cavitating or salivating. Note, I did have a wunderlich fuel controller fitted to prevent the bike from running lean.

Our i20 with a 10.5 compression ratio also runs permanently on 93. currently at 120k km
The modern engines in both your i20 and BMW have knock sensors that retard ignition timing when you run on a lower octane fuel. Its not a problem.
 I ran my 1190 on 93 and although it sounded a bit different and had a little less power the motor was fine.

Well, my LC does make a noise, call it knock or ping, or whatever (I don't know which is correct), on 93 octane that it does not do on 95.  That said, it only does so under more extreme conditions, say hard acceleration in 6th gear from 90 or 100.  So does my wife's.  So, although I cannot see using 93 will damage anything as long as you do not ride into those mentioned conditions, I prefer 95 as that then disappears.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2016, 06:04:38 pm by TheBear »
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Offline Battlestar

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Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2016, 07:05:06 pm »
There are many threads about this over the years with a wealth of advice and replies received from various owners etc.  Bottom line my 1200gs pings farts and splutters under hard acceleration on 93 octane. I don't know why but it does. I now have a booster plug fitted and the BMW OEM remap for 93 octane and the bike is better but on very hot days wether at the coast or inland it still does it. All 3 of my 1200gs and my single spark 1150 suffered from this "pinging" problem. For me I use the highest octane available always.
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Offline volroom

Re: Re: Why not 93 Octane
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2016, 05:28:48 am »
I must have done more than 30000km inland on my 2008 1200GS without any knocking/pinging/detonating/cavitating or salivating. Note, I did have a wunderlich fuel controller fitted to prevent the bike from running lean.

Our i20 with a 10.5 compression ratio also runs permanently on 93. currently at 120k km
The modern engpines in both your i20 and BMW have knock sensors that retard ignition timing when you run on a lower octane fuel. Its not a problem.
 I ran my 1190 on 93 and although it sounded a bit different and had a little less power the motor was fine.

Well, my LC does make a noise, call it knock or ping, or whatever (I don't know which is correct), on 93 octane that it does not do on 95.  That said, it only does so under more extreme conditions, say hard acceleration in 6th gear from 90 or 100.  So does my wife's.  So, although I cannot see using 93 will damage anything as long as you do not ride into those mentioned conditions, I prefer 95 as that then disappears.
In america I think you can get your hands on toluene quite easily, which when added to petrol boosts octane rating. Here is SA you pay your socks off. In europe in some countries you can get up to 100Ron, but it's of course more expensive. Pinging is less likely inland in winter. It's a distinct sound, someone described it sounding like a can of spraypaint being shaken (with metal ball to mix paint). The boxer do make other noises, it's not a quite engine, but if the noise goes away when you use 95 instead, then it's probably pinging. Strange that the knock sensors don't sort it out. Perhaps inquire at bmw about alternate fueling maps? Or.. Just keep using 95. Don't think car engines can be compared to modern bikes engines. If you think about it, there no 1200cc car engine that makes 92kW. Usually at least a 1600cc Four cylinder. Bike engines are more likely to ping/knock
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