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Author Topic: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)  (Read 9560 times)

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Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #140 on: December 13, 2016, 08:39:40 am »

Basically, we must start a thread, discuss and arrange a route, a start time, add some incentives like routes not normally accessible to the public, organise a few backup vehicles with trailers, and do it.


Thats why I mentioned earlier: We must 'buy' the route from Alexander and put something together.

Adie
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Offline Camelman

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #141 on: December 13, 2016, 09:01:35 am »
Thanks for the comments guys.

Looks like I will have some down-time in July and August in the new venture I'm entering. This means there is time for one more event other than the Baja.

Most of the problems has been addressed in the comments. But can be summarized as follows:

Cost to recce and 'build' the road-book. We don't to sticker, nor GPS tracks. this means  we have to physically ride the route by bike or 4x4 to write the road-book. Bike is faster bur less accurate as I too have to first survive the obstacle to be able to write about it. This means that I will first jump a hole, then mark it on the GPS. Not every ditch is seen as note-worthy when I'm on a bike, hence the less detailed road-book. With the Jeep it is 2/3 slower, but we can stop before the hole, and mark it. One also notices more detail at 15 km/h than 45 km/h. (Reccing with the Jeep is just about 1/3 the speed I normally do on the bike) So, to write a 700 km road-book takes 700/15 = 46 hours. That is if the terrain is known to me. If not, it can take 3 or four times that. That is why the routes were so good in 2016, I could fly them before driving them. This costs money, lots of it. To the sum of about R100-R250/km depending of the terrain and my & John's knowledge.

A MSA event requires a minimum number of ambulances and medics. For any Amageza-style event, ie: Cross-Country we require 1x ALS, 2 x ILS and 2 x BLS medics that is (Advanced Live Support, Intermediate Life Support, Basic Life Support). Then we require 2 ambulances and a response vehicle. This is a very expensive exercise. A helicopter is optional, but we either have one if we can afford it, or we have one on standby in close proximity. The latter comes in the form of favors from friends.

We require at least 25-30 volunteer personal who gets a meager allowance as marshals, and some well paid officials. But this is still in the 5 figures.

Then we need vehicles. Most of these are hired. Only my Jeep and the Sweep are not hired. We hire vehicles to ensure they are mechanically sound before we start the race. If a vehicle should break down during the race, we are screwed. This costs 6 figures.

Then there are fee's to MSA, government, tourism and local communities. You cannot have a event without MSA. With MSA involved you get third-party liability for riders and organization as well as medical cover for every competitor and marshal.

If we have 30 or 100 competitors, the basic requirement stays the same, and so do the costs. I calculate the entry fee as costs/ number of entries + JIC factor of 10-15% depending on what Zuma may or my not say.

If only 46 riders enter, then only 50% of the costs has been paid for. In stead of cancelling the event, I normally pay the shortfall myself. This has come at a terrible price to my wife and I, and we just cannot afford it any longer.

We cannot plan and stage a event longer than 2 days part time. Its a full time job. Neither can I take deposits and wait till we reach 60-70 entries before I start the route and relevant planning. It takes just about a month a stage day to plan, get the required permissions and write the road-book. So for a 5 day race I need 7 months. (The application to have a race on partial public road takes 3 months. They require the full route with the application.)

Hence the need for sponsorship. To my mind sponsorship has two purposes:
  • Operating capital at the beginning of a season.
  • Buffer against low entries.

But a sponsor wants coverage. Print, and preferably TV.

Decent coverage, requires decent footage. A good photographer, like the guys from Oakpics has a cost to company of R12 000 - R15 000 per day. Film cost about the same, but you have additional editing costs. Their transport around the race is quite expensive unless you have a great volunteer like Jacques from Upington who transported Lie-Ann around the race route this year.

It's not that I have given up, its just that I have run out of savings to cover any shortfall in entries for 2017.

So the Livingston and Amageza has to wait for a sponsor or my piggy-bank to recover before I can initiate another event. Only the West Coast Baja is safe for now.  :ricky:


« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 09:02:45 am by Camelman »
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #142 on: December 13, 2016, 09:19:28 am »
.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 09:01:20 am by Sláinte Mhaith »
 

Offline Camelman

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #143 on: December 13, 2016, 09:31:59 am »

Basically, we must start a thread, discuss and arrange a route, a start time, add some incentives like routes not normally accessible to the public, organise a few backup vehicles with trailers, and do it.


Thats why I mentioned earlier: We must 'buy' the route from Alexander and put something together.

Adie

Please be carefull.  ;) You either do it the correct way, or don't do it.

Try and think of your own 'style' of event. You only have 50% of the required info I have told you about the Livingstone Cup.

This sport cannot afford another Booker Effect. Please take care. Your order of importance should always be:
  • Has the land-owner approved your ingress. Is he being compensated adequately for the usage of his/their land.
  • Is MSA happy and will they support your event.
  • If using any public roads. Do you have the required Provincial Approval according to the Public Road Act?
  • Has the safety of the entrant featured paramount in all stages during the planning of the route. (medi-vac, recovery, navigation)
  • Have you thought of every possibility that can happen during the event and can you handle any situation that can develop.
  • Do you have the right crew with the right skills. You cannot have a marshal abandon the race mid-stage.
  • ...

That's just some of the items to tick off before a race. Safe-guard yourself, the competitor and the land-owner or government, and you will always be welcome.

Cross-Country racing is not a race of three laps around a farm or two. To me the latter is about as much fun as doing knitting. I want to see NEW HORIZON! I don't want to see the same route twice in one day!

It's easy to say, lets plan a race. But the moment you take money from a competitor a number of laws kick in. Make sure you know them, and you are adequately prepared.
 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #144 on: December 13, 2016, 09:47:30 am »
Well said Alexander. :thumleft:

Maybe if I can find a profitable mine you will have a sponsor...but that is about as hard and time consuming as organizing a rally! :imaposer:


Whatever happens, we DEFINITELY cannot afford to have another GEORGE BOOKER disaster. It seriously ruined rally raid in the Tankwa for everyone else since then. (George, if you're reading this you still owe a lot of people a lot of money! :deal: )
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Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #145 on: December 13, 2016, 09:51:03 am »
The Idea of 'buying' the route was more aimed at 'a group of friends' adventure. NOT A RACE or EVENT.  Maybe just a 4x4 and trailer as backup.

Adie
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Offline m0lt3n

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #146 on: December 13, 2016, 09:57:31 am »
Counter point:  If a 1200GS is faster than a 450 over a route then its not something I want to do.

But the Baja and Amageza and ROA already cater for you...
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Offline m0lt3n

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #147 on: December 13, 2016, 10:22:58 am »
Thanks for the detailed answer Alexander. Its good to know all the risks and legal compliances and and.

Its also frustrating, from my side Ijust want to have a few hard days in the saddle, be challenged and see a bit of our beautiful country without having to spend r50k for what is essentially a week of fun.

There is no 'novice event' option? That means no official racing or special permits or motorsport.

Ai, one can only dream
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Offline Orangeswifty

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #148 on: December 13, 2016, 11:21:08 am »
2011 and 2012 were the first inaugural races/rides of the Amageza without MSA approval.
After those races one of the general bitching points were that MSA were not involved and that there were no spectator points or 'real' medical support.
in 2012 the format was more centred on dual sport bikes and there were lots of KLR's and XR 650's, yammy 660's, some 950's and 990's and even a 1200 GS........ridden by a woman nogal :thumleft:
The 2013 and 2014 Amagezas were the first ones where MSA were involved and Alex started doing a lot more work on more difficult routes, getting the road books right etc......
It did how ever cause a migration from bigger bikes down to the 450, 500 and 690 sizes.

I think this event would have sparked the interest again for big DS bikes
There are a lot of guys who ride 1200 adv size scooters that would like to partake in such an event.
specifically if its more dual sport orientated with less attention to navigation and more to time management.

It can work but the right sector of bikers has to be reached

Note: there are probably 3 or 4 times as many BMW 1200 adventure riders out there than all the others manufacturers combined.
All of them gets sold those bikes by BMW with a picture of Rambo with a knife between his teeth ingrained in their brains.
He wants to be a tiger with muscles who can prove his worth off road with his new acquisition.
Maybe give him the vehicle to become one with this idea............... :biggrin:.
Wont it be feasible for BMW dealerships and /or training centres like ADA to get involved?
This needs a lot more thought and marketing than a small survey on Wilddogs
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 11:26:51 am by Orangeswifty »
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Offline Kortbroek

Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #149 on: December 13, 2016, 11:56:54 am »
So in the light of this thread and drawing inspiration from it I am hatching a plan. We can sit by and lament the fact that organisers like Camelman can't always be expected to look after our racing needs, or we can do something. Myself and Rebelwithacause here on the forum have been hatching a plan. Watch this space.

Imagine an unsupported, find your own route adventure rally where reaching the checkpoints first or in time won't necessarily make you the winner. Your ability to regale us of your tales of adventures enroute might though.

Just working out a few things, should be able to make an announcement in the next week or two.  :ricky:  :ricky:

I'll start a new thread as soon as I'm ready (I'll post a link here if you don't mind Camelman)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 11:57:44 am by Kortbroek »
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Offline bud500

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #150 on: December 13, 2016, 12:03:15 pm »
So in the light of this thread and drawing inspiration from it I am hatching a plan. We can sit by and lament the fact that organisers like Camelman can't always be expected to look after our racing needs, or we can do something. Myself and Rebelwithacause here on the forum have been hatching a plan. Watch this space.

Imagine an unsupported, find your own route adventure rally where reaching the checkpoints first or in time won't necessarily make you the winner. Your ability to regale us of your tales of adventures enroute might though.

Just working out a few things, should be able to make an announcement in the next week or two.  :ricky:  :ricky:

I'll start a new thread as soon as I'm ready (I'll post a link here if you don't mind Camelman)

Makes me think of something like www.putfootrally.com.
Any Car, Any Route! 5 Countries, 5 Checkpoints, 5 Parties across 8000km in 18 Days.
But just for bikes.
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Offline Xpat

Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #151 on: December 13, 2016, 12:04:02 pm »
@Camelman: Hat off to you sir, for pulling this off and keeping it up for so long! I was always wondering how an event of this scale (Amageza) can survive on such a low admission fee - I see now it was through your own personal financial loss.

@m0lt3n: Martin, no offence intended at all, but why you need somebody to organize basically a week long trip for you? Is it the social aspect you are looking for?

Why don't you just have a look at the googlemaps (they are amazingly detailed now and with satellite images you can plot tons of off the beaten track riding - all of it on public land), plot nice route and just go? I do it 2 - 3 times a year - sometimes deciding literally night before, no problem. And I dare to say my routes are not that far off what Amageza routes were about - I have actually ridden (unknowingly at the time of course) parts of the Botswana route on my own on heavy bike (Tenere) with tons of luggage half a year before the rally. Of course what they did in a day I did in two or three - if you want to push yourself try to do it in one day  :). If you need a company, organize a mate or two and get Spot or Satellite for back-up - and Bob's your auntie.

You are in Northern Cape - i.e. not far from Botswana (where you can go bonkers if you do your homework as most of the land is public), southern Namibia. Heck, even in SA side - did you do Namaqua 4x4? That should challenge you all right - especially on that hippo of yours  :peepwall: :ricky: If you want, I can plot a route for you (still waiting for my leg to mend - how is yours?) easily within day or two - and I haven't even been to the are properly yet.

Offline Kortbroek

Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #152 on: December 13, 2016, 12:08:19 pm »
So in the light of this thread and drawing inspiration from it I am hatching a plan. We can sit by and lament the fact that organisers like Camelman can't always be expected to look after our racing needs, or we can do something. Myself and Rebelwithacause here on the forum have been hatching a plan. Watch this space.

Imagine an unsupported, find your own route adventure rally where reaching the checkpoints first or in time won't necessarily make you the winner. Your ability to regale us of your tales of adventures enroute might though.

Just working out a few things, should be able to make an announcement in the next week or two.  :ricky:  :ricky:

I'll start a new thread as soon as I'm ready (I'll post a link here if you don't mind Camelman)

Makes me think of something like www.putfootrally.com.
Any Car, Any Route! 5 Countries, 5 Checkpoints, 5 Parties across 8000km in 18 Days.
But just for bikes.

Something along those lines yes although not quite the same. I think we have a good basic idea, just threshing out a few details.
- you reckon that thing will pop a wheelie? We're about to find out, SLAP that pig!
 

Offline m0lt3n

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #153 on: December 13, 2016, 01:11:07 pm »
@Camelman: Hat off to you sir, for pulling this off and keeping it up for so long! I was always wondering how an event of this scale (Amageza) can survive on such a low admission fee - I see now it was through your own personal financial loss.

@m0lt3n: Martin, no offence intended at all, but why you need somebody to organize basically a week long trip for you? Is it the social aspect you are looking for?

Why don't you just have a look at the googlemaps (they are amazingly detailed now and with satellite images you can plot tons of off the beaten track riding - all of it on public land), plot nice route and just go? I do it 2 - 3 times a year - sometimes deciding literally night before, no problem. And I dare to say my routes are not that far off what Amageza routes were about - I have actually ridden (unknowingly at the time of course) parts of the Botswana route on my own on heavy bike (Tenere) with tons of luggage half a year before the rally. Of course what they did in a day I did in two or three - if you want to push yourself try to do it in one day  :). If you need a company, organize a mate or two and get Spot or Satellite for back-up - and Bob's your auntie.

You are in Northern Cape - i.e. not far from Botswana (where you can go bonkers if you do your homework as most of the land is public), southern Namibia. Heck, even in SA side - did you do Namaqua 4x4? That should challenge you all right - especially on that hippo of yours  :peepwall: :ricky: If you want, I can plot a route for you (still waiting for my leg to mend - how is yours?) easily within day or two - and I haven't even been to the are properly yet.

None taken.
I get you, and know I was open for that assumption.
I have limited time to plan, but know thats not an excuse. I would only be able to maybe round up 5 to 10 bikes for something like this. That will be just another out ride or trip, but imagine the spirit if there is 50 big bikes doing a trip with you. That will be epic. All staggered over the same route with the same challenge but you only see each other now and again.
Plus my knowledge will be limited, a trip will be what my boring imagination can dream up out of my limited experience. Also I wont just out of my own free will take a map, make 5 random dots where there seems to be nothing and go for it, I would like some persuasion...maybe I am to much of a follower and would rather have someone else do it.
My friends would also not sign up for 4000km in 4 days of gravel on a route designed by little me.

No I have not done the Namaqua 4x4. Just read up on it and it seems to be a must, I will have to get to it! (Doesnt look to technical, but then...the 4x4 guys wont be bothered by sand as much as I will be). It could also be added to this event, 630km which shouldnt be to difficult to arrange.

(I think you have enough experience to design a 4 or 5000km semi challenging route easily for us!!!!)

My leg is okayish, I will be taking my hippo out (hopefully) for the first time this weekend for some dust. I still wobble like a penguin though, but off topic....I will go update the other thread.
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Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #154 on: December 13, 2016, 01:12:46 pm »
Counter point:  If a 1200GS is faster than a 450 over a route then its not something I want to do.

But the Baja and Amageza and ROA already cater for you...

True, but the GS Trophy and the Rallye Raid - http://www.rallyeraid.co.za/ - caters for you...
 

Offline m0lt3n

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #155 on: December 13, 2016, 01:20:46 pm »
Counter point:  If a 1200GS is faster than a 450 over a route then its not something I want to do.

But the Baja and Amageza and ROA already cater for you...

True, but the GS Trophy and the Rallye Raid - http://www.rallyeraid.co.za/ - caters for you...

This copied from the Rallyeraid site is why I would have to disagree with you, it may be technical challenges, but your ass, your eyes, or your back is never going to feel challenged.

"Package include:
- 3 nights hotel accomodation at The Haven Hotel;
- 3 meals per day including lunch at new hotels on both riding days"
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Offline Xpat

Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #156 on: December 13, 2016, 03:13:17 pm »

None taken.
I get you, and know I was open for that assumption.
I have limited time to plan, but know thats not an excuse. I would only be able to maybe round up 5 to 10 bikes for something like this. That will be just another out ride or trip, but imagine the spirit if there is 50 big bikes doing a trip with you. That will be epic. All staggered over the same route with the same challenge but you only see each other now and again.
...

Hmmm, you see that right there (the bold bit) is where we differ fundamentally. For me riding off the beaten track is about getting away from the bustle and hustle of Rivonia Road, getting in the flow with the surrounds  - just me and max 1 or 2 mates.

The image of 50 bikes (especially the big ones that are just crap in the sand) ripping across  let's say Makgadikgadi, or heavens forbid attempting the cutlines along Okavango (leaving aside that almost nobody on a big bike has reasonable chance there) is just disgusting to me. Inevitably most of them will be just followers riding in the dust trail before them without any comprehension of where they are and where they are going. No different from package tourists looking for pre-chewed instant adventure - I think it is almost safe bet that regular coffee breaks will be required no matter what. And good luck if something horrible (like no hot shower in the evening, leave alone injury or broken bike on the pans) happens there - you will have an angry pack on your hands very quickly.

And the chances are that after one or two such a shindigs the areas will be closed to the bikers for ever by authorities due to disruption to environment and wildlife - let's face with 50 mostly males in the place, there will be always idiots pushing the boundaries at every opportunity (the same ones that will cry loudest should something go wrong).

In Amageza, each rider rode (I'm guessing here) as and individual aware of the risks, being able to navigate and being able to sleep out in the sticks should situation require it. I'm not saying they may not help each other, but they went there with the right mind set - self-sufficiency.

It seems to me (and I know I'm harsh here) that what you are looking for will turn into a herd of followers ((I'm not referring to you now) following few leaders, getting maimed in the process and - most importantly for me - disrupting areas that may be turned off the limit to bikes as a result. I can guarantee you that as soon as the riding gets too tough for them (or are you going to preselect them?) the tempers will fly high very quickly, potentially screwing up everybody's ride. There was a report here recently I think from Zanie about ride through Southern Namibia, where the leader took the group through D707 (absolute must as far as I'm concerned and - and I'm average rider at best - challenging but doable on big bike), which turned out to be a bit sandy and he had a riot on his hands.

Offline Offroad2

Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #157 on: December 13, 2016, 04:14:40 pm »
Well said Alexander. :thumleft:

Maybe if I can find a profitable mine you will have a sponsor...but that is about as hard and time consuming as organizing a rally! :imaposer:


Whatever happens, we DEFINITELY cannot afford to have another GEORGE BOOKER disaster. It seriously ruined rally raid in the Tankwa for everyone else since then. (George, if you're reading this you still owe a lot of people a lot of money! :deal: )

BB a small correction I think you meant Namakwa rather than Tankwa

Alex is a 100% correct, most will not know the red tape with authorities, you may even have a gathering without a permit, however Landowners are key and it takes time to win their approval. Agreed it must be done properly or not.
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Offline J-dog

Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #158 on: December 13, 2016, 04:27:08 pm »
Counter point:  If a 1200GS is faster than a 450 over a route then its not something I want to do.

But the Baja and Amageza and ROA already cater for you...

True, but the GS Trophy and the Rallye Raid - http://www.rallyeraid.co.za/ - caters for you...

what he said. Rallyraid is exactly what peeps want. And it's also every year  :thumleft:
 

Offline m0lt3n

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Re: The Livingstone Cup: The ultimate adventure race (11-16 Jun '17)
« Reply #159 on: December 13, 2016, 05:13:28 pm »
Xpat
I get what you are saying but I dont feel its applicable.
Your description of Amageza...now why cant the big bikes have an event like that, but for them. Something challenging that wont cost an additional R100k to prep your bike, get satelite phone and stuff?
I know there is idiots that will complain at any and all things, but I do have some friends, on big bikes, that would love to ride hard all day and do an event Malle moto style, but are not prepared to go get and kit a plastic for such a once off adventure.

Damn man,  there is this whole picture you have or portray of hippo owners, but if someone actually do want to ride the shit out of his hippo thats also shot down
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