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Offline ChristiaanJ

Re: Hypothesis, old small &lt; new big
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2017, 09:32:03 pm »
m0lt3n, reading your post here, I cannot help but wonder if your actual question is "Is my KTM 1190R a real adventure bike?"

I completely understand why ypu ask that. I too have read some of the ride reports of the more well known members on this forum and seen their comments that the "big" adventure bikes are not for real adventurers, and their insinuations that unless you ride the most remote parts of the country on their choice of "adventure" bike, you are not in the club, and not worthy to be called an adventure rider.

I call BS to all of it. It is no more than a massive pissing contest, and a kak elitist mentality.

Adventure riding or biking means different things to different people. My definition of adventure is not determined by someone else's idea. My status of adventurer is also not determined by which bike I ride, or by where I've ridden.

I have gone skydiving, bungee jumping, white water kayaking and rafting and I watched my daughter being born. These and many many more things in my life were all wonderful adventures. Buying my "adventure" bike (also an 1190R) was a way for me to have some adventures. My adventures however don't have be doing the trickiest most technical routes in Lesotho, or riding days worth of sand in the Kaokoveld.

Many of the places I want to go can be reached by a car, but this makes it no less of an adventure for me.

If I have learned anything from riding it is that the more technical it becomes, or the faster you ride, the less you take in. I want to see places I have never seen. I want to wake up in the mornings in my tent with silence and and amazing view outside my tent.

I don't buy into all this bullshit. If I can ride, see some beautiful places, and meet new people along the way I am happy. I am not an idiot, and I realise that all bikes have their strenghts and weaknesses. I'm not taking my bike to a place where the enduro riders play. That said, I put thought into what I needed, and I bought what I wanted.

I have a massive grin each time I ride my bike, and I look forward to challenging myself and becoming a better rider, and going on more adventures.

DON'T let anyone tell you how you should adventure. These guys themselves aren't true adventurers in the real sense of the word anyway. You determine what your adventures are, and the bike that takes you on those is the real adventure bike.

Just go riding man!

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Offline Xpat

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Re: Hypothesis, old small &lt; new big
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2017, 01:09:47 am »
m0lt3n, reading your post here, I cannot help but wonder if your actual question is "Is my KTM 1190R a real adventure bike?"

I completely understand why ypu ask that. I too have read some of the ride reports of the more well known members on this forum and seen their comments that the "big" adventure bikes are not for real adventurers, and their insinuations that unless you ride the most remote parts of the country on their choice of "adventure" bike, you are not in the club, and not worthy to be called an adventure rider.

I call BS to all of it. It is no more than a massive pissing contest, and a kak elitist mentality.

....



I am really sorry to have hurt your feelings so much - I had no idea!

What was I thinking when I thought 'capable in tough terrain'  and mention of Van Zylpass (that would be in Kaokoland, wouldn't it?) was focusing the discussion on the capability in tough terrain? I should have realized that one's inner feelings about their bike are at least as important as the technical capabilities, and that m0lt3n maybe just looking for a little confirmation that his bike is indeed 'adventure' bike!

Also my suggestion that Makgadikgadi are actually fine on big bike was extremely insensitive. There may be people out there who may struggle there on fully loaded GSA or similar and they may feel belittled by this crass comment!

While I do not recall saying that big adventure bikes are not for real adventurers (indeed I do not recall using the term real adventurers ever - I'm sure its just my memory slip), I have been repeatedly guilty of suggesting that smaller DS bikes are more suitable for technical terrain than big heavy bikes. Moving forward I will try to desist from saying such outrageous things as much as I can as that is solely my subjective opinion and has nothing to do with objective reality.

I know nothing can probably repair the damage done, but I would love to try.  ChristiaanJ, could we maybe share a trip together? Feel one with the universe next to flickering fire, sharing cup of tea, suspending rational reasoning and looking always on the bright side?

I would love to see adventure through your eyes!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 01:23:12 am by Xpat »
 

Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2017, 08:00:51 am »
haha
Let me then state, the 1190 is a shit adventure bike and just a toy. Rode last night a bit and the grin factor was huge, test this morning if I can start it in the cold, I struggle and then get low oil pressure warning. Seems I am going to have to spend even more money on it. So I will stick to a hypothetical comparison of the LC which I deem more expedition ready (if I may steel someone else's summary of LC vs new 1190) vs older expedition bikes. (But this is myself just rambling as I am a bit bitter atm, I will probably be sorry later for making these comments)

I realise 'an adventure' has a different definition for everyone, so would rather not have the mud slinging as above for now. While I like mudslinging myself I do actually like a proper discussion as well. :)
an adventure for me...well the moments I cherish the most was the ones where I was totally out of my depth and properly challenged. the trip and good scenery is just the backdrop for those moments.

Solid point on why the new tenere is so much heavier than the old tenere, it cant be all due to more electronics. More info would actually be nice. I know the new one does not have a fancy frame but rather something still weldable by an amature in the outback. But that should apply to the old one as well.

Many comments now on the KLR being very capable (but still crap) which is interesting. Can a 30kg difference and a 21 front make that big difference in sand? Would the GS's cog not be lower and the low down power also help a little?
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Offline sidetrack

Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2017, 08:33:20 am »
haha
Let me then state, the 1190 is a shit adventure bike and just a toy. Rode last night a bit and the grin factor was huge, test this morning if I can start it in the cold, I struggle and then get low oil pressure warning. Seems I am going to have to spend even more money on it. So I will stick to a hypothetical comparison of the LC which I deem more expedition ready (if I may steel someone else's summary of LC vs new 1190) vs older expedition bikes. (But this is myself just rambling as I am a bit bitter atm, I will probably be sorry later for making these comments)

I realise 'an adventure' has a different definition for everyone, so would rather not have the mud slinging as above for now. While I like mudslinging myself I do actually like a proper discussion as well. :)
an adventure for me...well the moments I cherish the most was the ones where I was totally out of my depth and properly challenged. the trip and good scenery is just the backdrop for those moments.

Solid point on why the new tenere is so much heavier than the old tenere, it cant be all due to more electronics. More info would actually be nice. I know the new one does not have a fancy frame but rather something still weldable by an amature in the outback. But that should apply to the old one as well.

Many comments now on the KLR being very capable (but still crap) which is interesting. Can a 30kg difference and a 21 front make that big difference in sand? Would the GS's cog not be lower and the low down power also help a little?
They made it bigger much bigger. I bought an old 1989 Tenere some time ago and that thing feels like a dirt bike compared to the 660 whilst still having 23 L of fuel and being 600cc. I don't know why but all new bikes are built bigger and heavier imho. I still liked my 660Z a lot though.
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Ride reports :
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=134175.0 Penge's pass and the Old Forest http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=9421.0 - Orange Atlantic adventure http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=7514.0 - 805 km day trip http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=20260.0 - East Cape Bash http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=70199.0 - Two KTM thumpers head north
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2017, 08:38:23 am »
Just look at streetbikes, and see the remarkable progress from a 1985 GSX-R 750, to the current GSX-R 600.

Modern D/S bikes should be more capable, but are they? Is a watercooled GS1200, except for power output which at that level becomes a bit of a moot point, really better at D/S than the GS1150?

Neither will be taken into 690 territory, and with the far superior reliability of the 1150, I believe it to actually be better than the new GS.

My Yamaha XT600E, when compared to the king of modern middle-class D/S, 690/701, is far slower because it is far less powerful. Suspension is also a letdown compared to the 690/701.
BUT.....for D/S or adventure riding, I would take the Xt hands down.
Why? The Yamaha, for all it's shortcomings, is still adequate for D/S riding, and it is magnificently reliable.

So as in these examples, have D/S bikes really made progress regarding D/S, and not tar touring? I am not convinced.
 

Offline Dwerg

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2017, 08:59:56 am »
m0lt3n, look at the state of your 1190. Maybe it's time to stop arguing this 'capable big bike' theory
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Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2017, 10:43:54 am »
Just look at streetbikes, and see the remarkable progress from a 1985 GSX-R 750, to the current GSX-R 600.

Modern D/S bikes should be more capable, but are they? Is a watercooled GS1200, except for power output which at that level becomes a bit of a moot point, really better at D/S than the GS1150?

Neither will be taken into 690 territory, and with the far superior reliability of the 1150, I believe it to actually be better than the new GS.

My Yamaha XT600E, when compared to the king of modern middle-class D/S, 690/701, is far slower because it is far less powerful. Suspension is also a letdown compared to the 690/701.
BUT.....for D/S or adventure riding, I would take the Xt hands down.
Why? The Yamaha, for all it's shortcomings, is still adequate for D/S riding, and it is magnificently reliable.

So as in these examples, have D/S bikes really made progress regarding D/S, and not tar touring? I am not convinced.

"Adequate" does not cut it. I have no intention of saving up to leave a big inheritance.


m0lt3n, look at the state of your 1190. Maybe it's time to stop arguing this 'capable big bike' theory

Well, the last RR I read was Xpat's, and his medium sized partners bike had engine failure. I am not there yet. Shit happens, but more shit happens with KTMs, And its all happening to me.
 I will consider dropping the theory though (for a while), if my upcoming Lesotho trip is a failure.

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Offline Dwerg

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2017, 10:56:30 am »
Can't really compare an engine failure to peripheral damage caused by heavy off-road use. I'm just saying it becomes maintenance intensive as well as physically taxing when you use big bikes outside of their design parameters too often
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Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2017, 11:25:39 am »
Can't really compare an engine failure to peripheral damage caused by heavy off-road use. I'm just saying it becomes maintenance intensive as well as physically taxing when you use big bikes outside of their design parameters too often
The problem with the statement is I would have had none of the issues if I was still on my AC GS. While still doing all. And as I was blissfully unaware of what I was missing out on, my smile was just as big.
I have had a shaft failure, but they generally only fail once, so that was addressed...
but point taken. I am yet to tackle kilometres of dunes before I will be forced to agree though.

I am not blind to the reality of a light bike being better for Xpat-level adventures. But that level of adventures is 90% possible with a big bike as well, (just harder work) But you still retain the joys when doing a normal adventure. The added point is here, the opportunities for the tougher adventures is fewer to do with friends, while more people is willing/capable of doing a normal adv. Don't know if I am cut out for a solo adv yet.

Also, make no mistake, I fight hard to have at least a little challenge added to our normal outings. If I have not fallen once I am disappointed as I was not challenged (understand better the state of my bikes now...?) so then, since my new slightly noob Lesotho riding buddy has not found this thread...Old Mill Drift is part of that itinerary.

I am rambling. sorry
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Offline bud500

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Re: Hypothesis, old small &lt; new big
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2017, 12:13:04 pm »
m0lt3n, reading your post here, I cannot help but wonder if your actual question is "Is my KTM 1190R a real adventure bike?"

I completely understand why ypu ask that. I too have read some of the ride reports of the more well known members on this forum and seen their comments that the "big" adventure bikes are not for real adventurers, and their insinuations that unless you ride the most remote parts of the country on their choice of "adventure" bike, you are not in the club, and not worthy to be called an adventure rider.

I call BS to all of it. It is no more than a massive pissing contest, and a kak elitist mentality.

Adventure riding or biking means different things to different people. My definition of adventure is not determined by someone else's idea. My status of adventurer is also not determined by which bike I ride, or by where I've ridden.

I have gone skydiving, bungee jumping, white water kayaking and rafting and I watched my daughter being born. These and many many more things in my life were all wonderful adventures. Buying my "adventure" bike (also an 1190R) was a way for me to have some adventures. My adventures however don't have be doing the trickiest most technical routes in Lesotho, or riding days worth of sand in the Kaokoveld.

Many of the places I want to go can be reached by a car, but this makes it no less of an adventure for me.

If I have learned anything from riding it is that the more technical it becomes, or the faster you ride, the less you take in. I want to see places I have never seen. I want to wake up in the mornings in my tent with silence and and amazing view outside my tent.

I don't buy into all this bullshit. If I can ride, see some beautiful places, and meet new people along the way I am happy. I am not an idiot, and I realise that all bikes have their strenghts and weaknesses. I'm not taking my bike to a place where the enduro riders play. That said, I put thought into what I needed, and I bought what I wanted.

I have a massive grin each time I ride my bike, and I look forward to challenging myself and becoming a better rider, and going on more adventures.

DON'T let anyone tell you how you should adventure. These guys themselves aren't true adventurers in the real sense of the word anyway. You determine what your adventures are, and the bike that takes you on those is the real adventure bike.

Just go riding man!

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I agree with the sentiment of the above.
Also can't see how any person on here needs to be offended by this.

It's your bike, your ride, your adventure and your life, live it your way! (any subliminal reference to Jeep not intended)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 12:14:37 pm by bud500 »
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Offline Cracker

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2017, 12:24:08 pm »
Can't really compare an engine failure to peripheral damage caused by heavy off-road use. I'm just saying it becomes maintenance intensive as well as physically taxing when you use big bikes outside of their design parameters too often
The problem with the statement is I would have had none of the issues if I was still on my AC GS. While still doing all. And as I was blissfully unaware of what I was missing out on, my smile was just as big.
I have had a shaft failure, but they generally only fail once, so that was addressed...
but point taken. I am yet to tackle kilometres of dunes before I will be forced to agree though.

I am not blind to the reality of a light bike being better for Xpat-level adventures. But that level of adventures is 90% possible with a big bike as well, (just harder work) But you still retain the joys when doing a normal adventure. The added point is here, the opportunities for the tougher adventures is fewer to do with friends, while more people is willing/capable of doing a normal adv. Don't know if I am cut out for a solo adv yet.

Also, make no mistake, I fight hard to have at least a little challenge added to our normal outings. If I have not fallen once I am disappointed as I was not challenged (understand better the state of my bikes now...?) so then, since my new slightly noob Lesotho riding buddy has not found this thread...Old Mill Drift is part of that itinerary.

I am rambling. sorry

That there underlined bit says it all - that's what it's all about.

I once entered an enduro on my KLR coz I didn't know any better. Drove a all the way to Matatiele to do it, so couldn't back out. Felt like a real tosser waiting in the paddocks before being sent out - but just thought,"Fuck it, yes, it's a KLR, you sniggering retards - watch this move".

I took the bike where no adventure bike has gone or should ever go, Finished the race and even had to give some broken-wristed, plastic-rider a lift out of the mountains. AND I got a prize for bravery, or stupidity, can't remember which - was a bit pissed at prize-giving. Zero to Hero  :thumleft:

But now that I'm more well informed and more experienced, there's no way I'd do the same again. Sad really ......

Of all the rides I've done it's always the stupid ones that are remembered - so get out there (once your bike's fixed  :imaposer: :imaposer:) and do the shit you shouldn't do - it's way more fun!!

The right bike and the wrong bike is the same bike, boys .....
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Offline Renrew

Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2017, 01:07:20 pm »
Cool story Cracker!

But hell it must have been embarrassing. I mean if you pitch up with a GS people would have thought you're just crazy, but with a KLR looking kak on the best of days, it must have added to the feeling a bit.

Listen a KLR is to adv what a crf230f js to "offroad". Good'ish bike, very cheap, reasonably reliable and boring at the best of days with looks not having formed part of the design teams requirement :lol8:

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Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2017, 01:35:32 pm »
Haha Renrew not holding back at all!

Great story, and driving back home on what you got there on is the best of all. Its dual purpose bikes, the dual should still apply.

I used to have a slogan on skype or somewhere,  probably stolen from a dog..
An Adventure is taking the wrong wrong equipment to innapropriate places.


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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2017, 05:41:19 pm »
To solve this puzzles, too many variables has to come together.

mOlt3n chooses a high-tech long-travel suspension bike for his touring. Where does he go? Tankwa, or road to Hell?
"Adequate" suspension is precisely that, adequate for D/S. Not Enduro or MX, but touring the country-side.

The 701 is a beaut to ride, and it performs so well and the suspension just copes with everything, but so does my XT600 when I tour distance.

Point is mOlt3n, if you ride a modern bike like it was designed to be ridden, inheritance will come up, because you may well die. But you do not, do you?

Hence my point, most of modern tech is wasted on the majority.

One would say every owner of a KTM rides like Chris Birch. :eek7: :pot:

And....if you go on your bike where one can reach by car, it may be nice but do not call it adventure.
 

Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2017, 07:44:37 pm »
I actually dont know anymore myself what we are discussing anymore.

I would also not call a place I can reach by car an adventure.

And I would love to try road to hell on the big bike, but understand its almost undoable currently even on a 650 so guess I wont get through. I am perfectly willing to spend say 6 hours trying, if others would be willing to wait.

We are beginning to beat a dead horse here though, and I still dont know if a KLR is more capable than a modern 1200
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Offline katana

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2017, 08:06:42 pm »
I actually dont know anymore myself what we are discussing anymore.

I would also not call a place I can reach by car an adventure.

And I would love to try road to hell on the big bike, but understand its almost undoable currently even on a 650 so guess I wont get through. I am perfectly willing to spend say 6 hours trying, if others would be willing to wait.

We are beginning to beat a dead horse here though, and I still dont know if a KLR is more capable than a modern 1200
You have an adventure.  You don't own an adventure bike.  That is just an over used sales phrase...  I remember getting directed to a shortcut from Lamberts bay to Saldana by some locals.  Now that 25km was an adventure.  On my Katana nogal.

To say that modern DS bikes are enduro bikes is just pointless.  You buy an enduro bike to do races.  The DS market gives us the options to more comfortably ride off the beaten track.  If my WR could get me to the same riding places I can get to on my GS, I would only own a WR.

Trailering a bike to start a DS ride defeats the purpose.  No?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 08:08:08 pm by katana »
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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2017, 10:10:23 pm »
m0lt3n, reading this made me think of the Audi Quattro S2 from the 1980's. Miles ahead of its compeditors at the time but compared to its modern alternatives no longer compeditive. But it still remains a hell of a vehicle.
Now, relate that to the old Africa Twins. Great bike for its time. And so there are countless examples over the years.
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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2017, 06:18:10 am »
I don't doubt the capability of the modern bikes but I do question the longterm reliability of modern electronics.
Will ride by wire - esa suspension- electronic rider modes etc stand the test of time ?
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2017, 07:49:31 am »
The OP asked whether a current 1200 "adventure bike" is actually an improvement over say a 20 year old same category big adventure bike like say an Africa twin.

The modern bikes have definitely improved by miles, but not always in the right direction. Huge amounts of power makes them very streetable, and electronics is now needed to harness that power for offroad

use.

Let us compare the GS800 to the previous generation Africa Twin.

The GS is only better because the AT is not available new anymore, so comparisons will always have to be between a new bike and a 20 odd year old machine.

But my point is that in that 20 years, the GS has not become better than the AT as an adventure or D/S bike.

Proof is also in the fact that you won't be taking a 40 year old KTM or Husky on any adventure, but the XT500 is still up for it. :thumleft:
 

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Re: Hypothesis, old small < new big
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2017, 07:53:29 am »
I don't doubt the capability of the modern bikes but I do question the longterm reliability of modern electronics.
Will ride by wire - esa suspension- electronic rider modes etc stand the test of time ?

This we'll find out when if and when they are being restored in 30 years time - I doubt it.
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