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Offline Sithe

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Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #940 on: August 08, 2018, 11:36:14 am »
I also vaguely remember F1 had ongoing comms between the car and the pits, but like you I remember that banned.  A few years ago the Yamaha WSBK bikes (Troy Corser days) used a GPS enable front suspension.  The suspension could then be set up for each meter of the track separately, so it basically anticipated what was coming and what the correct setting would be.  That was also banned pretty quickly.

An interesting rule in MGP, who is currently testing pit to bike comms, via an SMS like function is that it is allowed, as long as all teams, Race Direction and even the TV spectators can see each message.

I don't know what your feelings are on electronics @TheBear ... I know a lot of people who don't like the new era of what they call "robot racers" ... they prefer old school manual throttle control

I personally quite like it, gone are the days of the "sky launch" that we used to see particularly with two strokes ... riders were one wrong twitch of the wrist away from being launched into low earth orbit ... lot's of careers came to early ending because of that
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Offline TheBear

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #941 on: August 08, 2018, 11:42:56 am »

I don't know what your feelings are on electronics @TheBear ... I know a lot of people who don't like the new era of what they call "robot racers" ... they prefer old school manual throttle control



To be honest, I am in two minds.  On the one hand, I like the old school, no rider aids idea, but then I also realise the electronics is the way we are going and they do bring another dimension to the sport. 


Maybe this is why they also, sometimes, seem to lose it for no apparent reason. In the heat of the moment, you expect X but get Y, and end up on the floor.

It happens, possibly more than we know.  I remember a few years ago JL99, then still on a Yamaha went down in a spectacular crash in the first corner after he did a practice start in one of the free practice sessions.  What had happened is, he flicked the switch to engage the launch control.  At the time the launch control (not sure if still this way) deactivated the normal traction control as it used those sensors for the launch.    Launch control automatically switches back to normal race mode after the first gear change.  JL pulled away like a scalded cat and took that fist corner immediately after.  As he ripped open the throttle he found that his traction control didn't work and he went down.  He had not yet made a gear shift so, expected X, got Y and saw his posterior.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 11:46:58 am by TheBear »
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Offline Amsterdam

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Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #942 on: August 08, 2018, 02:21:25 pm »
Now that they're doing so much developing to calm down these motors, are they still striving for more power as well? Or are the motors at a point where it's all electronics now, no point in mechanical development?

Actually the whole electronics development is very interesting. There was an article some time ago, don't know if I can still find it.

So basically, they are able to load something like 11 different engine maps. During the race as conditions change, e.g. tar temperature, tyre wear, fuel load, etc  ...  the rider is able to switch to a different engine map that controls power delivery better for the changed conditions.

Also the mapping is dynamic, i.e. they might set it so that in turn one there is no wheel spin at all, but in turn three the mapping allows the tyre to spin up to square off the corner or something like that ... so the power deliver is not the same everywhere around the track.

I believe there is still a ton of development to come in as far as electronics is concerned, if one thinks of machine learning and so on. You will find that the computer will learn from lap to lap and make adjustments to the mapping on the fly.

One of the limitations currently is that no communication from pit lane to the bike is allowed during the race, telemetry is banned, they had in formula 1 but I think it's banned there now also. But once you can teach the computer how to learn and make own adjustments, it's a whole new world

I am not sure that this is a benefit as a dynamic system.  As a rider you want to know what to expect when you open the throttle and not get a different setting for every lap.  I can see the benefit in gathering the feedback and using that as an improved "static" map.
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Offline 2StrokeDan

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #943 on: August 08, 2018, 08:22:59 pm »
Now that they're doing so much developing to calm down these motors, are they still striving for more power as well? Or are the motors at a point where it's all electronics now, no point in mechanical development?

The 4stroke engine is basically maxed out in terms of development.
 

Offline TheBear

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #944 on: August 08, 2018, 10:05:26 pm »
Now that they're doing so much developing to calm down these motors, are they still striving for more power as well? Or are the motors at a point where it's all electronics now, no point in mechanical development?

The 4stroke engine is basically maxed out in terms of development.

With my limited knowledge, I think you are correct and with the rules in place, we won't see weird developments like V5's or square 4's and so on and even if we did, I doubt it would improve the current inline 4 design.  .
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Offline Bwana

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Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #945 on: August 09, 2018, 08:07:13 am »
Only yamaha and suzuki use the in line 4cylinder. Most use the V4 however the Degree angles of each seem to be a closely guarded secret by some manufacturers.
 

Offline TheBear

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #946 on: August 09, 2018, 08:10:43 am »
Only yamaha and suzuki use the in line 4cylinder. Most use the V4 however the Degree angles of each seem to be a closely guarded secret by some manufacturers.

You are correct.  I should have said inline 4 and V4 engines.  The point doesn't change though.  With the rules in place and the current level of development, we won't see weird developments like V5's or square 4's and so on as we saw in years past..

A few years ago MotoCzysz developed a very interesting engine of 990cc with the idea to participate in MGP.  When Dorna changed to 800cc, for the 2007 season it killed the project.  Their engine would be mounted longitudinally instead of across the frame, making the gyro effect go away.  Their engine was pretty much an inline 4 cut in half, one half turned around and added back in with "half" crankshafts rotating counter each other.  This engine didn't create any gyroscopic effects and because it was mounted the way it was, had better weight distribution and other advantages as well.  Thing is, most of its advantages negated because it is now sorted by electronics.

I saw a doccie about this sometime ago and that bike sounded amazing.  Pity it never made it to the track.

EDIT:

The doccie is "Birth of a Racer" and is available on YouTube.

Short video during testing.



« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 08:27:11 am by TheBear »
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Offline Bwana

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Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #947 on: August 09, 2018, 10:39:23 am »
If you look Closely the silver wheel in the middle is weighted rotates in the opposite direction to the engine and negates the Gyroscopic effect all moto gp bikes  have some kind of weight doing this.They also run the engines counter-clockwise to counter gyroscopic effect of the wheels. They say this can cost them up to 10% power loss so in effect it tells you how powerful these engines really are. So basically these problems have been solved easily.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 10:40:45 am by Bwana »
 

Offline TheBear

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #948 on: August 09, 2018, 11:08:27 am »
If you look Closely the silver wheel in the middle is weighted rotates in the opposite direction to the engine and negates the Gyroscopic effect all moto gp bikes  have some kind of weight doing this.They also run the engines counter-clockwise to counter gyroscopic effect of the wheels. They say this can cost them up to 10% power loss so in effect it tells you how powerful these engines really are. So basically these problems have been solved easily.

That the silver wheel in the middle looks a lot like the clutch. Anyway, just like I said earlier, these issues were solved in the modern MGP bike in various ways and that makes further development more and more difficult and possibly created a situation where we will never again see strange and wonderful engines like the V-5, 4-square, etc.   In other words, these engines have reached such a high level of development that it is not worth the time, money and effort required to try something completely new and / or different.

Wouldn't it be awesome if the secrets of MGP bikes were available for us to see?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 11:41:09 am by TheBear »
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Offline Suzukli DL

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #949 on: August 10, 2018, 05:57:10 am »
Indeed a dry clutch, Ducati has used them for decades in racing and on road going sport bikes.
 

Offline Bwana

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Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #950 on: August 10, 2018, 08:19:28 am »
Yes you are right but run in opposite direction to engine with balance weights. It is a fine balance act as there must be some gyroscopic affect as this is what keeps a bike upright but here i suspect they mostly balance the gyro from the wheels against the engine.
 

Offline TheBear

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #951 on: August 10, 2018, 10:25:55 am »
Yes you are right but run in opposite direction to engine with balance weights. It is a fine balance act as there must be some gyroscopic affect as this is what keeps a bike upright but here i suspect they mostly balance the gyro from the wheels against the engine.

But, if I understand you correctly, you are now about the gyroscopic effect keeping the bike upright.  That is true for any bike on the road, except those with an engine like the BMW boxer.

What I was talking about in the post about the MotoCzysz was preventing the engine's gyro effect from lifting the bike's front wheel from the ground under heavy acceleration. 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 10:27:40 am by TheBear »
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Offline Bwana

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Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #952 on: August 10, 2018, 10:55:51 am »
That is one of the 11 functions controlled by the ECU. All bikes are kept upright by the gyroscopic effect of the wheels even peddle ones however there is also a gyroscopic effect from the engine the BMW one is a good example as it can be felt when you rev the engine while stationary due to the crank running parralel to the bike. However it aslo affects the handling a Bmw will lean faster to the right side than the left. An engine can also be used to assist the bike to keep upright when the bike is stationary IE.Trail bikes.
 

Offline Sithe

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Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #953 on: August 10, 2018, 11:14:47 am »
Maybe BMW comes back to MotoGp with their boxer engine and rewrite the rules

And how about Triumph ... they had that triple which the Kenny Roberts team tried out but there was no real money behind it, so we never really saw its full potential
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Offline TheBear

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #954 on: August 10, 2018, 11:54:12 am »
That is one of the 11 functions controlled by the ECU. All bikes are kept upright by the gyroscopic effect of the wheels even peddle ones however there is also a gyroscopic effect from the engine the BMW one is a good example as it can be felt when you rev the engine while stationary due to the crank running parralel to the bike. However it aslo affects the handling a Bmw will lean faster to the right side than the left. An engine can also be used to assist the bike to keep upright when the bike is stationary IE.Trail bikes.

Ja.  Agreed.  All very interesting and correct and all of it ads up to the reason why we will not see weird and wonderful engines in racing like we did on the past.

Maybe BMW comes back to MotoGp with their boxer engine and rewrite the rules

And how about Triumph ... they had that triple which the Kenny Roberts team tried out but there was no real money behind it, so we never really saw its full potential

There is a problem with that.  According to current Dorna rules, they only allow 22 (could be 24) bikes on the grid for a MGP race.  The teams are contracted for a period of time and the grid is basically full.  This means, no space for BMW and their cunning Boxer, or Triumph with a triple.  This is why Petronas couldn't just buy two bikes and enter.  They had to first find a team who would work with them.  That team would then run the satellite Yamahas under the Petronas colours.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 11:58:45 am by TheBear »
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Offline Bwana

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Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #955 on: August 10, 2018, 12:07:04 pm »
Maybe BMW comes back to MotoGp with their boxer engine and rewrite the rules

Bmw have already tried in the 50s and again in th60s The Boxer engine due to its in line Crank is not suitable. Also the Cylinder heads to exposed so the engine needs to be raised lifting the COG.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 12:11:00 pm by Bwana »
 

Offline TheBear

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #956 on: August 10, 2018, 07:05:47 pm »
Austrian GP:

FP1:  Darryn 20th.  Brad 17th.   Steven 25th.
FP2:  Darryn 17th.  Brad 22nd.  Steven 1st. 

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Offline TheBear

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #957 on: August 10, 2018, 07:23:10 pm »
Maybe BMW comes back to MotoGp with their boxer engine and rewrite the rules

Bmw have already tried in the 50s and again in th60s The Boxer engine due to its in line Crank is not suitable. Also the Cylinder heads to exposed so the engine needs to be raised lifting the COG.

I  doubt that the boxer engine would have had any impact on the lean angle of a bike in the 50's and even 60's.  The tyres were the big issue not allowing a lean angle which could come close to making the side pods a problem.  Boxer engine BMW's did win the IoMTT and even a Grand Prix on occasion.  My guess as to why BMW did not grow in MotoGP is the same reason MV Augusta, Norton, etc. all eventually disappeared.  The Japanese appeared with their two strokes and that was that.

As for entering a Boxer today, I agree, not suitable.  First they would have to make it a 4 cylinder to comply with the rules., but I do believe Sithe was making a joke when he suggested it.
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Offline Bwana

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Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #958 on: August 11, 2018, 08:04:27 am »
Yes I agree but an interesting fact is the 2 cylinder Boxer engine dominated side car racing for many years using the same factory racing engine developed for the then premier class
world Championship.
 

Offline TheBear

Re: MotoGP 2018.
« Reply #959 on: August 11, 2018, 08:43:39 am »
Yes I agree but an interesting fact is the 2 cylinder Boxer engine dominated side car racing for many years using the same factory racing engine developed for the then premier class
world Championship.

They did and that surprised me a bit.  Also, the 500 Boxer with the super charger used in that era must have been an interesting setup.
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