Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

Author Topic: MotoGP top speeds over the years.  (Read 1950 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2StrokeDan

  • a Man of Character
  • Castrated Dog
  • ******
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 24,712
  • Thanked: 1853 times
  • Slim like Bill, straight like Steve
Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2018, 06:33:42 pm »
Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.

You seem to have it wrong Danie.  2-Strokes were never "bluntly outlawed" for 4-strokes to survive in racing.  The 2-Strokes were phased out to make space for the 4-Strokes which, so believed at the time, would run cleaner.  It was change that required making due to Euro regulations, etc. and as such a change to save MotoGP racing.

Just a note, the 2011 125 2T was never limited.  The 2017 250 $T is limited in terms of maximum revs, etc.  Keep that in mind when comparing.

This is roedracing where wide full open throttle is regularly used.  If these 250 4T's are not limited like this, few would finish a race.
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

  • a Man of Character
  • Castrated Dog
  • ******
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 24,712
  • Thanked: 1853 times
  • Slim like Bill, straight like Steve
Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2018, 06:37:10 pm »
Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.

You seem to have it wrong Danie.  2-Strokes were never "bluntly outlawed" for 4-strokes to survive in racing.  The 2-Strokes were phased out to make space for the 4-Strokes which, so believed at the time, would run cleaner.  It was change that required making due to Euro regulations, etc. and as such a change to save MotoGP racing.

Just a note, the 2011 125 2T was never limited.  The 2017 250 $T is limited in terms of maximum revs, etc.  Keep that in mind when comparing.

If you change the rules so that the 2stroke becomes too small in capacity to compete, you are virtually outlawing them.
 

Offline TheBear

  • Bachelor Dog
  • *****
  • Bike: BMW R1150GS Adventure
    Location: Other
  • Posts: 10,309
  • Thanked: 595 times
Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2018, 08:48:38 am »
Very interesting stats Bear  :thumleft: As said, some don't like to admit it, but smokers ripped and still do....a lot, sadly mostly in offroad applications  ;)
There's nothing like the smell of 2 stroke early in the morning !

I am from that era Sheepman and cannot differ from you.  I felt like a man who lost his wife, girlfriend and dog in the same accident when the last of the 125GP 2-Smokes disappeared from the SA racing scene and I still love the sound and smell.  I guess I will always do as well.  They are just special.

Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.

You seem to have it wrong Danie.  2-Strokes were never "bluntly outlawed" for 4-strokes to survive in racing.  The 2-Strokes were phased out to make space for the 4-Strokes which, so believed at the time, would run cleaner.  It was change that required making due to Euro regulations, etc. and as such a change to save MotoGP racing.

Just a note, the 2011 125 2T was never limited.  The 2017 250 $T is limited in terms of maximum revs, etc.  Keep that in mind when comparing.

If you change the rules so that the 2stroke becomes too small in capacity to compete, you are virtually outlawing them.

Which part off "phased out for ecological reasons" do you not grasp?

Modern Moto3 1 cyl 250 vs the best 1cyl 250 2stroke?

Moto 3 replaced the 125GP (2-Stroke) class.  I am not sure that a 250cc 2T single exists that it could be compared to.

Mugello again:

2011 Last year of 125 2T:

- Pole time:  Zarco, Derbi:  1'58.988
- Top speed:  Moncayo, Aprilia:  229.8

2012 First Year of Moto 3 (250 4T):

- Pole time:  Vinales, M, Honda: 1'57.980
- Top speed:  Khairuddin, KTM: 234.9
   
2017:  Moto 3 for comparison:

-  Pole time:  Mir, Honda: 1'57.462
-  Top speed:  McPhee, Honda:  239.2

This demonstrates well what an amazing machine 2strokes are, when it comes to power, as in racing use. The 2011 125cc 2T single is as fast as the 2017 250cc 4T single.

Bottom line is that 2strokes has to be either restricted in some form, or bluntly outlawed for 4strokes to survive in racing.

You seem to have it wrong Danie.  2-Strokes were never "bluntly outlawed" for 4-strokes to survive in racing.  The 2-Strokes were phased out to make space for the 4-Strokes which, so believed at the time, would run cleaner.  It was change that required making due to Euro regulations, etc. and as such a change to save MotoGP racing.

Just a note, the 2011 125 2T was never limited.  The 2017 250 $T is limited in terms of maximum revs, etc.  Keep that in mind when comparing.

This is roedracing where wide full open throttle is regularly used.  If these 250 4T's are not limited like this, few would finish a race.

Just an unprovable statement.  We don't know that for a fact and it is a rather weak excuse.

Fact is Danie, like it or not, 4-Strokes are now the bikes doing the racing.  Can one of the big manufacturers build a 2-Smoke that can keep up, or even kick ass?  Yes.  I have no doubt.  It is however a moot point as it is unlikely to happen.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 08:52:50 am by TheBear »
#33 #BRADICAL!
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

  • a Man of Character
  • Castrated Dog
  • ******
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 24,712
  • Thanked: 1853 times
  • Slim like Bill, straight like Steve
Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2018, 09:39:55 am »
@Bear; yes, I realize 4strokes are now doing the racing, and I do not even have a big problem with that, still close and good racing.

On the ecological front, you only need one 4stroke to blow it's guts out to equal a full season of 2stroke pollution. And go google how much oil is consumed by the 250 single 4strokes in one race, you would fall over backwards. It is actually more than the 2strokes used.

The 250 4strokes, in MX terms, have an incredibly short life-span. In Moto3 it is even worse, seeing that wide open throttle is used more often, which is when a moter is under full load and taking most strain.
And of course, it is not an "excuse" at all, just a fact.  4Strokes rev higher than 2strokes, with more moving parts and higher part inertia. 4Strokes are more fragile than 2strokes under even conditions.

Like you, I am also a 2stroke fan, and mourn their demise.
 

Offline TheBear

  • Bachelor Dog
  • *****
  • Bike: BMW R1150GS Adventure
    Location: Other
  • Posts: 10,309
  • Thanked: 595 times
Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2018, 09:55:17 am »
Ja Danie, I do not think the ecological thing carries any water either, but it is what led to the demise of the 2-smokes. 

As for reliability, the Moto3 bikes are only allowed 6 engines per season.  That means the engines need to last for 18 races, including free practices, qualifying, testing, etc.  They are pretty reliable and the rev limit is set to make the playing field level.  I don't think it is to save the engines.  If it was about reliability, the manufacturers would have set the limit themselves.  Honda, for instance is constantly pushing for a 500rpm increase in the rules.  This means they are confident they can go the season on 6 engines at an extra 500rpm.  That being said, the 125GP 2-strokes could probably doe it with half the number of engines.

#33 #BRADICAL!
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

  • a Man of Character
  • Castrated Dog
  • ******
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 24,712
  • Thanked: 1853 times
  • Slim like Bill, straight like Steve
Re: MotoGP top speeds over the years.
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2018, 07:39:37 am »
Ja Danie, I do not think the ecological thing carries any water either, but it is what led to the demise of the 2-smokes. 

As for reliability, the Moto3 bikes are only allowed 6 engines per season.  That means the engines need to last for 18 races, including free practices, qualifying, testing, etc.  They are pretty reliable and the rev limit is set to make the playing field level.  I don't think it is to save the engines.  If it was about reliability, the manufacturers would have set the limit themselves.  Honda, for instance is constantly pushing for a 500rpm increase in the rules.  This means they are confident they can go the season on 6 engines at an extra 500rpm.  That being said, the 125GP 2-strokes could probably doe it with half the number of engines.

 :thumleft: