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Author Topic: New KTM 690's ????  (Read 6463 times)

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Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2019, 09:43:44 am »
XPlor are the WP latest offerings but really also need some work to make them decent and flow more oil - HH has done his magic on ours on the 250XCW that made a considerable improvement but the main problem is that to save bucks the internals have been thinned and dumbed down on this latest generation pogos. Many who race have either gone back to older open cartridge, or Ohlins inserts or bitten the Cone Valve bullet. True story.

Ah, racing is a completely different story though!

No not really completely different - suspension needs to work. Both are enduro bikes. If the forks are deflecting on a race bike they will deflect on your 690/701

Racing you obviously hit things at way faster speed than you would probably do them while not racing and you would want every single ounce of performance for om the suspension. So I do think its different. Also buying a 690 for racing Enduros may not be the best idea. KTM 450 would probably be better.

In my experience riding the bike in pretty much all environments now, and while not close to Chris Birch and the like s speed - I have yet to go hell the suspension sure is crap  in fact I often go... oh my word I love this thing!
Ive had YZs XC-Ws KXs KLXs WRs and adventure bikes etc and I didnt find the 690s suspension to be anything less than good enough for what I do with it on an average ride. The YZs was the best imho but of course - its a MX Race bike.

Again, the way you guys are going on about it would make everyone reading it think that you get on the thing and you basically fall off before hitting 2nd gear because of the suspension.
I think most is making a way bigger deal out of it than your average rider.

I.e better suspension is better, but great suspension is still good enough.

You will find very few places where you'd go 140 kph+ in an off-road race, maybe a couple of times a race.  On a 690 you'd quite easily hit a wash-away on a dirt road at 160 kph.  Then you really need the suspension.
 

Offline Xpat

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2019, 10:32:33 am »

Racing you obviously hit things at way faster speed than you would probably do them while not racing and you would want every single ounce of performance for om the suspension. So I do think its different. Also buying a 690 for racing Enduros may not be the best idea. KTM 450 would probably be better.

In my experience riding the bike in pretty much all environments now, and while not close to Chris Birch and the like s speed - I have yet to go hell the suspension sure is crap  in fact I often go... oh my word I love this thing!
Ive had YZs XC-Ws KXs KLXs WRs and adventure bikes etc and I didnt find the 690s suspension to be anything less than good enough for what I do with it on an average ride. The YZs was the best imho but of course - its a MX Race bike.

Again, the way you guys are going on about it would make everyone reading it think that you get on the thing and you basically fall off before hitting 2nd gear because of the suspension.
I think most is making a way bigger deal out of it than your average rider.

I.e better suspension is better, but great suspension is still good enough.


Hmmm, where do I even start here...

First of all on how many of those bikes did you get your suspensions set-up properly? Maybe you did, but I suspect like most people you just did ride the bike as you bought it, at max just changed preload. I used to do the same until I happened upon 300 that was by pure accident set-up about right for me and it was huge eye opener. It is difficult to describe how much more freedom and enjoyment well set-up suspension will provide - I was at least 40% faster on the trails in DeWildt than I was on the 450 I had before (and never touched suspension on the dumb assumption that the manufacturers know best). And the riding while faster was also much more effortless and therefore I lasted much longer. Since then the first mod on my every bike is to get suspension sorted as best as possible, and I don't skimp on that. And it doesn't matter how 'great' suspension is supposedly out of box - if set-up wrong, it isn't going to work well and you might as well have some much cheaper junk there. Even if I would buy Coma's dakar bike with his 100k Eur forks, the first would be to get it set-up right.

So after that long preface - with all due respect, if you haven't ridden bike with good and properly set-up suspension, your opinion is quite frankly very limited. For example I haven't ridden YZ but the fact that you believe it had the best suspension for basically enduro riding seems very suspicious, as one of the things that does separate MX bikes from enduro is completely different suspension set-up (much more plush and forgiving for enduro, much harsher for MX).

And no, I don't agree on your racing angle at all. While of course racers need good suspension to have competitive advantage, I would argue that weekend warriors need great suspension as much if not more for their own safety. As BTB said, you are usually riding way faster on the way to Tankwa padstal than most racers in offroad race - especially on full blooded bike like 690. And you will inevitably came upon surprises at those speeds, like a rock you might have overlooked, or a new washout after storm, where only great suspension may save your butt (racer on the other hand may be due to their experience able to survive even on simpler suspension). So I would argue that if anything - good and well set-up suspension - is one of the most important safety features of motorcycle, especially for people with less experience.

And no, the standard suspension on 690 is not going to kill you if you ride like a granny. But if you are going to push - and lets face it, most people who buy  690 want to push the envelope a bit, good suspension becomes much more critical for your safety and enjoyment.

I don't bitch about KTM modern suspension in vaccum here - as in they provide great suspension but I'm never satisfied and always want more (although , of course I want the best  >:D). I think I'm pretty realistic in my expectations. I'm calling KTM out on a  dirty game they are playing with their suspension as over the years they were silently dumbing down their suspension on almost all bikes I guess to save costs (while increasing price of the bikes) and increase their profit margin. That clearly is not a good deal for customer - i.e. me (and you quite frankly). For example standard suspension on early 690 was way better quality than the crap forks they started to put in since MY2014. Why did the do it?

The same is true for the 950/990, where the suspension has been dumbed down in many steps (although there it was only travel if I'm not mistaken, internals probably remained the same). And the same is true for 500 suspension.

From all that I have heard, 640s had by far the best suspension - they just gave customers the best they could for the price, while now I suspect they lookonly after their profit margin (nothing wrong with that, but if I'm coming short because of that, I will make myself heard). So unless we make our voices heard (yes I know Pierer is not following WD, but quite frankly that and other bike forums are the only outlets we as customers have to voice our opinion), they will continue to play this game and we customers will be worse off.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 10:36:54 am by Xpat »
 
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Offline Omninorm

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2019, 11:01:40 am »
I hear what you are saying Xpat and I agree to an extent.
You are missing my point though and this is a pointless debate without know how fast or what terrain either of us ride at any given time.
Of course better suspension is better - no one needs a lecture about this - It's pretty obvious.
I'm just saying you are making it a way bigger deal about the suspension on a 690 than it is.  I mean every.single.thread.  The average guy riding this will love the suspension. If I was going to be doing a Baja or Dakar or whatever and I am in it to win it, of course I'm going to pay attention to the suspension and every aspect of it. Most people don't do that so doesn't care that it's not going to withstand a 5 meter high jump at 180kph.

Here we were discussing a new launch, with better suspension than apparently it has currently. Which is obviously then an upgrade. To me who likes what the KTM 690/701's bring to the table it's obviously good news and I'm using the current suspension as a yardstick, which for my riding (maybe I ride like a granny - I'm not here to be strutting' our udders) is really great and I would not go spend money to change it.

So yes KTM, why dumb it down all the time. I agree. Shit move and yes, we want the better ones for the same price please - otherwise we will bitch about the price!
What I don't agree with is the constant blanket statements that "the suspension is crap".  Compared to most if not all other Dualsports/adventure bikes the 690's suspension is amazing.
If you want to have it better, and feel like spending that sort of money then change it, but imho for 90% of riders it's not necessary.


« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 11:03:11 am by Omninorm »
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Previous:  KTM 690 Enduro R , BMW G310GS, BMW 1200GS LC, BMW F800GS, Suzuki Vstrom 650, Honda Transalp XLV700, BMW Xchallenge, BMW Xcountry, Yamaha WR250F, Honda NC750X, Honda XR150, Kawasaki KLX450R, Yamaha YZ250, Kawasaki KX450, Yamaha YZ250F,  KTM 250 XCW, Yamaha DT125, Yamaha DT50, Honda NSR250, Yamaha RZ 50.
 

Offline Xpat

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2019, 11:11:21 am »
Fair enough - the suspension on the new 690 should be an improvement on the current cheap one, even though it is dumbed down 500 suspension of few year ago.

On the no need to set-up suspension for normal riding and just riding whatever set-up it came up with, we will have to agree to disagree. You should really try it once...

Offline Omninorm

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2019, 11:30:57 am »
Fair enough - the suspension on the new 690 should be an improvement on the current cheap one, even though it is dumbed down 500 suspension of few year ago.

On the no need to set-up suspension for normal riding and just riding whatever set-up it came up with, we will have to agree to disagree. You should really try it once...

I never said you shouldn't set it up I said you should not have to yank out the old suspension to put in others.
I've had a few properly set up so I know what a difference it can make  :thumleft:
Current: :
Previous:  KTM 690 Enduro R , BMW G310GS, BMW 1200GS LC, BMW F800GS, Suzuki Vstrom 650, Honda Transalp XLV700, BMW Xchallenge, BMW Xcountry, Yamaha WR250F, Honda NC750X, Honda XR150, Kawasaki KLX450R, Yamaha YZ250, Kawasaki KX450, Yamaha YZ250F,  KTM 250 XCW, Yamaha DT125, Yamaha DT50, Honda NSR250, Yamaha RZ 50.
 

Offline Xpat

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2019, 11:34:06 am »
Fair enough - the suspension on the new 690 should be an improvement on the current cheap one, even though it is dumbed down 500 suspension of few year ago.

On the no need to set-up suspension for normal riding and just riding whatever set-up it came up with, we will have to agree to disagree. You should really try it once...

I never said you shouldn't set it up I said you should not have to yank out the old suspension to put in others.
I've had a few properly set up so I know what a difference it can make  :thumleft:

Alright, then I just misunderstood you  :thumleft:

Offline Dwerg

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2019, 01:59:22 pm »
Reading all of this, I am surprised that I am still alive. Seems the solution is to stop reading.
KTM 690R, 790ADV
 
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Offline jaybiker

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Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2019, 02:52:16 pm »
Reading this suspension debate, hordes of poor owners of common old XT's  Fugly's, Dakars etc are going to give up in tears and never set a wheel off the tar ever again!  :'(
 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2019, 07:01:36 pm »
Reading all of this, I am surprised that I am still alive. Seems the solution is to stop reading.

:imaposer: :laughing7:

Good suspension makes turns guys like you and me into riding gods, just before we mash our feet on the milk run against a steel stake in the ground or break our legs pulling wheelies. ;D
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 07:02:25 pm by BlueBull2007 »
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Offline WildWood

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Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2019, 09:57:46 pm »
At Amagesa about 3 three years back my good mate GJ won and put about ten minutes into the entire field (including Riaan van Niekerk on a factory Dakar 450RR) on the Orange River stage, riding a sock 690. No suspension work at all. And that's one tough stage.

Makes you think doesn't it?
 

Offline Omninorm

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2019, 10:06:26 pm »
At Amagesa about 3 three years back my good mate GJ won and put about ten minutes into the entire field (including Riaan van Niekerk on a factory Dakar 450RR) on the Orange River stage, riding a sock 690. No suspension work at all. And that's one tough stage.

Makes you think doesn't it?

He probably rode like a granny. ;)
I rest my case  :deal:
« Last Edit: January 29, 2019, 10:07:50 pm by Omninorm »
Current: :
Previous:  KTM 690 Enduro R , BMW G310GS, BMW 1200GS LC, BMW F800GS, Suzuki Vstrom 650, Honda Transalp XLV700, BMW Xchallenge, BMW Xcountry, Yamaha WR250F, Honda NC750X, Honda XR150, Kawasaki KLX450R, Yamaha YZ250, Kawasaki KX450, Yamaha YZ250F,  KTM 250 XCW, Yamaha DT125, Yamaha DT50, Honda NSR250, Yamaha RZ 50.
 

Offline geopat

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2019, 10:08:57 pm »
At Amagesa about 3 three years back my good mate GJ won and put about ten minutes into the entire field (including Riaan van Niekerk on a factory Dakar 450RR) on the Orange River stage, riding a sock 690. No suspension work at all. And that's one tough stage.

Makes you think doesn't it?
Make all the mods you want but I still.recon it's 90% rider and 10% bike so I put my effort into my riding instead of spending cash on the bike
 

Offline BlueBull2007

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Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2019, 10:50:28 pm »
At Amagesa about 3 three years back my good mate GJ won and put about ten minutes into the entire field (including Riaan van Niekerk on a factory Dakar 450RR) on the Orange River stage, riding a sock 690. No suspension work at all. And that's one tough stage.

Makes you think doesn't it?


Yes, but Gideon is a ringer. The Chuck Norris in the riding world. ;D
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Offline B.V.

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #53 on: January 30, 2019, 06:35:54 am »
Have had a moer of  a lot of 690,s. 1 450 and 1 500.
First 2008/9 690 had super kak suspention. Front kicked back.Think from 2012 that started changing.
Rode camera man on Gedeon,s 701 in Epic last year.
Raced Both Koos van der Heever an Johan Janse van Rensburg on 690,s in 2 amageza,s. Both moer fast.
My point is that it,s not so much the bad suspention on a 690 than the wrong riding style for the bike.
p.s.Jumped the 701 a few times in the epic with camera man on the back @ one point he started cheering. The 4cs work on that bike.
 

Offline Offroadrider

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #54 on: January 30, 2019, 06:49:09 am »
If a bike needs a steering damper then the suspension is not up to par plain and simple, as far as suspension goes the best stock is the KYB SSS that Yamaha put on their YZ range although it's a good thing to spring and valve for tech riding.
 

Offline Omninorm

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2019, 08:15:20 am »
If a bike needs a steering damper then the suspension is not up to par plain and simple, as far as suspension goes the best stock is the KYB SSS that Yamaha put on their YZ range although it's a good thing to spring and valve for tech riding.

I agree with your KYB SSS comment, but I completely disagree with the steering damper comment.
A steering damper is basically suspension for side to side movement.
Most racers even with jacked up racing 450s use steering dampers.

Did anyone manage to see what the new 690 will cost?
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Offline Offshore

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2019, 08:19:50 am »
I was Quoted R152k
 
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Offline Mayhem

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Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2019, 04:43:40 pm »
I was Quoted R152k
I was at Raceworx on Saturday and saw a 2018 690 on the floor for 152k, 2019 got to be 10-20 k more?

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Offline Offshore

Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2019, 05:34:45 pm »
I was Quoted R152k
I was at Raceworx on Saturday and saw a 2018 690 on the floor for 152k, 2019 got to be 10-20 k more?

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It was for a 2019 Model, coming April, May.
 

Offline Mayhem

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Re: New KTM 690's ????
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2019, 06:04:38 pm »
I was Quoted R152k
I was at Raceworx on Saturday and saw a 2018 690 on the floor for 152k, 2019 got to be 10-20 k more?

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It was for a 2019 Model, coming April, May.
No, it was a 2018 standing on the floor.

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