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Offline volroom

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #80 on: May 13, 2018, 12:09:56 pm »
Niks nuut van Honda se kant nie,

Ek self is Honda fan en dink die AT is 'n great bike maar het al self 'n stel met Honda SA af getrap.

Ek het nog my XRV 750 gehad en koop toe 'n 700 TA (nuut) by hom, toe ek eendag die ketting lube sien ek dat die ketting is foutief, nog nie eers 300 km gedoen nie maar van die O-rings is weg en ek aanvaar dit is maar 'n swak batch en dit maak ook nie die bike swak nie want Honda vervaardig mos nie hulle eie kettings nie.

Vat die fiets na die handelaar waar ek hom gekoop het en hulle sit 'n claim in, Honda SA reply jammer dit is nie 'n waranty nie en my eie probleem. Die handelaar aanvaar dit nie want dit 's 'n nuwe fiets en sit die claim weer in maar Honda SA keer die eis weer af. Die handelaar wat ook oortuig was dat dit 'n waranty is het toe die ketting op hulle koste vervang.

My opinie, Honda is 'n great produk maar as dit by waranty en pa staan kom dan staan hulle terug.

My ondervinding met Yamaha aan die anderkant,

Yamaha het ook 'n twee jaar unlimited km waarborg, Ek gaan doen 'n trip in Mosambiek en trailer my vorige S10 tot op Nelspruit, een van die tie down straps raak aan 'n side cover op die engine, die persoon wat my help laai het plak toe sommer 'n stuk tape op die engine om te verhoed dat die verf skaaf, toe ons in Nst die bikes af laai sien ek dit en trek die tape af wat dalk ook meer 'n af pluk is want ons is haastig en so kom daar 'n klein stukkie verf saam af. Ek aanvaar dit so want dit is mos ons eie onoselheid en dit is in elk geval so klein dat dit my nie pla nie.

Terug by die huis stop ek eendag weer by my Yamaha handelaar en oms staan by die fiets en gesels oor dit en dat, ek maak toe 'n grap en sÍ kyk hoe swak is die verf op die en dat dit sommer net af dop. Die handelaar vra my toe wat het gebeur en ek vertel hom presies van die tape en dalk te vinnig af pluk en dat dit my eie stupid fout is.

Die handelaar sÍ toe maar kom ons sit 'n claim in en kyk wat Yamaha sÍ. Ek laat weet toe dit is onodig en ek aanvaar dit as my eie fout en die fiets is toe alreeds omtrent agt maande uit waarborg en staan op amper 40 000 km. Maar so neem die handelaar 'n foto van die cover en gee dit deur aan Yamaha en beskryf presies wat gebeur het.

So is ek daar weg en dink by myself die handelaar mors sy tyd want dit is regtig 'n klein stukkie verf, die fiets is al lankal uit waarborg, km staan al amper op 40k en dit is mos my eie fout. Maar groot was my verbasing toe die handelaar my die middag terug bel en laat weet die cover sal die volgende dag by hom wees en ek my fiets kan inbring dat hulle hom kan vervang. Ek vra toe wat die koste sal wees want ek voel dit is my fout en die fiets is reeds uit waarborg waarop die handelaar my antwoord, dit is onder waarborg en kos my niks, Yamaha Sa het net laat weet ons nie weer tape moet plak nie want somige gom vorm 'n chemiese reaksie op verf maar ook dat die verf nie veronderstel is om af te kom nie.

Dit tel vir my nogal baie punte, dit wat ek aanvaar as my eie fout op 'n fiets met amper 40k km op en al lank uit waarborg is word gecover onder waarborg.

Die Honda wat nog nie eers 300 km gedoen het nie, die oorsaak niks met my te doen het nie en die koste van herstel veel minder as op die Yamaha was word af gekeer deur Honda, dit laat 'n bitter smaak in my mond en sal my twee keer laat dink voor ek weer 'n Honda sal koop alhoewel dit 'n goeie produk is.

Ek probeer nie brand bashing doen of myne is beter as joune doen met die post nie, maar dit is 'n feit dat Honda 'n baie goeie produk is maar hulle waranty en back-up uiters swak is.

Honda is dalk baie trots.. dit het goeie en slegte kant - hulle is trots op hulle werk, en worry nie so baie oor wat die market dictate nie, die ander kant van so independent attitude is hulle kan n veer voel vir jou as jy iets van hul wil he.

Hoe moet leer alhoewel, dat jy as n motorfiets mfg jou kliente moet probeer hou so veel jy kan. Mense bly mense, en iets so klein soos dit wat jy noem (of so groot soos die huidge probleem) is genoeg om n man weg te draai van die brand. Hulle moet in faktor dat hul kliente mense is, en dat mense nie daarvan hou om n raw deal te kry nie. simple.

Hulle is groot genoeg om die recal te doen. hoe langer hulle wag, hoe seerder gaan dit wees.

Goed om dit te hoor oor Yamaha.
2003 R1150GS
 

Offline Ian in Great Brak River

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Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #81 on: May 13, 2018, 05:58:34 pm »
 :lol8:
1978. It's 6am, mid winter...two up on a XL 185S ... off to my first casino ever with all of R40 and we've got a full tank of fuel, so enough to get there we reckon.... that's determination...

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Offline Koet

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Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #82 on: May 14, 2018, 08:14:49 am »
 :sip:
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Offline Battlestar

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Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #83 on: May 14, 2018, 10:08:28 am »
Isn't there a Wilddog who works for Honda? I recall a previous AT thread where it was escalated and when he got involved there were results?
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Offline Casting from Turd

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Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #84 on: May 14, 2018, 04:25:48 pm »
Isn't there a Wilddog who works for Honda? I recall a previous AT thread where it was escalated and when he got involved there were results?

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Offline blauth

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #85 on: May 14, 2018, 04:35:08 pm »
Isn't there a Wilddog who works for Honda? I recall a previous AT thread where it was escalated and when he got involved there were results?

Hardy de Kock

It's not Hardy's mandate to fight these fights!! Please don't lump this shit in his lap.

Offline luv2ride

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Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #86 on: May 14, 2018, 05:21:27 pm »
Watching with interest,  hope this gets sorted :thumleft:
S1000Xr- Sold R1200R -Sold
BMW F800GS - sold, Honda NC700X -Sold; BMW1150GSA -sold
BMW F650 twin - sold
BMW F800ST - in bike heaven Kawasaki KLR 650 - sold Kawasaki ER6F -sold Yamaha FZ6 - sold BMW 1200GS - sold BMW 650 Dakar - sold Yamaha XJ750 - stolen Honda MT5 - given away as scrap
 

Offline XRRX

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #87 on: May 14, 2018, 09:30:38 pm »
Well, I guess as I have started this thread on behalf of a friend in need, I may just as well end it ...

I'm 200% sure Honda SA as well as International is very well aware of this "issue" (and just to clarify - the issue is not fork seals, but apparent premature wear inside the shock, which, amongst other "more serious" disadvantages, may also shorten the life of any rubber seal ...)

Furthermore I may probably say (really hope I'm wrong) I'm 300% sure that absolutely nothing will happen from Honda's side - in any case Not on account of this thread...

There are already many reviews on the web on the 2018 AT, especially the all hyped Adventure Sports model. What I do find interesting though is this particular sentence in a recent (only a few days ago) test by "adventurebike.com":

There have been a few reports of ďsticktionĒ issues with previous 2016 and 2017 Africa Twins. Honda reps have informed us that the forks for the standard CRF1000L and the new CRF1000L2 go through a new coating process. The forks on the Adventure Sports model utilize a complete different assembly as well and are designed to withstand more aggressive off-road use.


What that Honda Rep said according to Adventurebike.com, may be the closest we'll ever get to admission by Honda ...

At least one can see in the pictures the colour of the forks (anodizing) is different ...

new vs old
 
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Offline Sycamore

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #88 on: May 15, 2018, 12:43:52 am »
I canít comment on the dealer issue but Iím surprised that any bike would be ďpissing oilĒ from the forks after only 10,00 kís.
And even more surprised if the cause was a ride in heavy rain with some mud. Maybe a year of muddy rides, but one day?
Iíve ridden a honda XR650R for years in bad conditions without fork issues, never replaced seals or oil.


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Offline armpump

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #89 on: May 15, 2018, 07:10:52 am »
Not sure if anybody read that adv thread but if i owned a AT i would do this at least.


"Did some measuring.
Wear patch bang on lower triple clamp area.
Put dial bore gauge in tube with tube in triple clamp and then torque to Honda spec.
Fork crushed by 0.05mm. Was able to watch dial gauge move while torquing down bolts. Can't be good.
The highest torque I could get with out deforming was 10nm.
The crush may or may not be the issue, I am sure it contributes.
I will torque top to 25nm and lowers to 10nm after coating and will inspect about every 5000km"
 

Offline volroom

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #90 on: May 15, 2018, 08:51:28 am »
thread does not have to stop..  ;D  I am wondering if Honda won't do anything, is there a solution locally? In America they change fork internals and re-anodize fork tube miliary spec nogal. What options are there here in SA? I know Haywards has an option, think changes are made to both front and rear, but is the anodizing problem addressed as well?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 08:53:07 am by volroom »
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Offline volroom

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #91 on: May 15, 2018, 08:55:16 am »
Not sure if anybody read that adv thread but if i owned a AT i would do this at least.


"Did some measuring.
Wear patch bang on lower triple clamp area.
Put dial bore gauge in tube with tube in triple clamp and then torque to Honda spec.
Fork crushed by 0.05mm. Was able to watch dial gauge move while torquing down bolts. Can't be good.
The highest torque I could get with out deforming was 10nm.
The crush may or may not be the issue, I am sure it contributes.
I will torque top to 25nm and lowers to 10nm after coating and will inspect about every 5000km"

Fork crushed?! so.. difficult not to think that Showa was skimping on quality to save costs...
2003 R1150GS
 

Offline armpump

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #92 on: May 15, 2018, 09:11:57 am »
Think these peeps can do it

http://td.co.za/anodizing/

Type III Ė Deeper oxide build-up to give a very hard, wear and corrosion resistance surface. Available in clear, voltage dependent colours or black.

 

Offline armpump

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #93 on: May 15, 2018, 09:14:13 am »
Not sure if anybody read that adv thread but if i owned a AT i would do this at least.


"Did some measuring.
Wear patch bang on lower triple clamp area.
Put dial bore gauge in tube with tube in triple clamp and then torque to Honda spec.
Fork crushed by 0.05mm. Was able to watch dial gauge move while torquing down bolts. Can't be good.
The highest torque I could get with out deforming was 10nm.
The crush may or may not be the issue, I am sure it contributes.
I will torque top to 25nm and lowers to 10nm after coating and will inspect about every 5000km"

Fork crushed?! so.. difficult not to think that Showa was skimping on quality to save costs...

All tubes get "crushed"/ pinched when too much force is applied

Ps KTM 1190R bottom clamp is only 12nm and top 15nm
« Last Edit: May 15, 2018, 09:15:20 am by armpump »
 

Offline volroom

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #94 on: May 15, 2018, 09:21:19 am »
Not sure if anybody read that adv thread but if i owned a AT i would do this at least.


"Did some measuring.
Wear patch bang on lower triple clamp area.
Put dial bore gauge in tube with tube in triple clamp and then torque to Honda spec.
Fork crushed by 0.05mm. Was able to watch dial gauge move while torquing down bolts. Can't be good.
The highest torque I could get with out deforming was 10nm.
The crush may or may not be the issue, I am sure it contributes.
I will torque top to 25nm and lowers to 10nm after coating and will inspect about every 5000km"

Fork crushed?! so.. difficult not to think that Showa was skimping on quality to save costs...

All tubes get "crushed"/ pinched when too much force is applied

Ps KTM 1190R bottom clamp is only 12nm and top 15nm

so issue with torque values suggested by Honda?
2003 R1150GS
 

Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #95 on: May 15, 2018, 09:27:17 am »
Some thoughts:

-Honda gives Showa the spec and price point for the fork, which Showa then delivers.  Similar in nature to BMW and WP for the F800GS
-The tube is very unlikely to permanently deform.  I'd think that backing off to a more acceptable torque for a lower triple: 15NM will still allow the fork to work as intended.  10NM is very little, especially for a heavy bike
-If I had an AT, I'd measure the gap between the bush and the outer leg (feeler gauge) and then put shim stock (strip cut from coke tin, etc) behind the bush to get the gap to 0.15mm.  I believe that most ATs run in the 0.2 - 0.25mm range stock, which is rather loose
 

Offline armpump

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #96 on: May 15, 2018, 09:32:04 am »
Surely if the anodising is coming off where the bottom triple is clamped, the it's clamped too tight. Or not round when clamped.

18nm

Actually Honda specs 35Nm for the lower clamps :o

Two additional issues is that the slider bush on the lower legs is under sized and that a significant length of fork leg protrudes above this bush.  This combination allows the stanchion to contact the inside of the slider, wearing the anodizing (specifically in the area of the bottom triple clamp).  However, this also causes leading edge damage of the bush, which allows the stanchion to deflect inside the slider under load, potentially causing seal failure.

Forks worked fine on 1980"s light weight dirt bikes............. problem is additional weight and stress it now has to deal with.
 

Offline armpump

Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #97 on: May 15, 2018, 09:39:35 am »
I read some guys say aftermarket company should make a 3 bolt lower triple clamp option :)
 

Offline peteb

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Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #98 on: May 15, 2018, 09:55:12 am »
Surely if the anodising is coming off where the bottom triple is clamped, the it's clamped too tight. Or not round when clamped.

18nm

Actually Honda specs 35Nm for the lower clamps :o

Two additional issues is that the slider bush on the lower legs is under sized and that a significant length of fork leg protrudes above this bush.  This combination allows the stanchion to contact the inside of the slider, wearing the anodizing (specifically in the area of the bottom triple clamp).  However, this also causes leading edge damage of the bush, which allows the stanchion to deflect inside the slider under load, potentially causing seal failure.

Forks worked fine on 1980"s light weight dirt bikes............. problem is additional weight and stress it now has to deal with.
Quite a few riders (local as well) have opted to change the forks out to KYB/WP 48's rather than try and fix the original Showas. It seems the size of the fork as well as the design/overlap contributes to the issues. Personally I don't think that 43mm forks on a 200 plus kg bike are enough, even if you are only hitting potholes on the pavement. I read with interest that there is (speculation of) the T7 having 43mm's. I don't think its enough, even though that bike (speculation again) seems it will be lighter than the AT. It would be an interesting experiment to work out the sliding surface area of a 43 vs 48 mm fork bush. I expect it would be quite a difference.
Again, I don't think this is a lower triple clamp torque issue. The damage seems to happen only on one face of the internals, rather than the entire circumference if the fork lower was being crimped too tight. You might even find that Honda specced the torque to be that high to try and work around the wear issue, by reducing flex induced wear.
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Online jaybiker

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Re: Africa Twin Fork issue - Honda SA ... Now what ...
« Reply #99 on: May 15, 2018, 09:57:15 am »
Yah well, it's happening folks. The gap between Japanese/European and Chinese/Indian quality is shrinking fast. :3some:

And unfortunately it's not all leveling up, but leveling down too.  :patch:
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