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Offline Mzee

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Ignition Connundrum
« on: June 29, 2018, 01:32:47 pm »
The key starts the bike very well, and it sits firmly into the lock.  However, I suspect that the tumblers inside the lock cylinder may be worn, damaged or the lock cylinder has failed.  I can start the bike, take out the key, and the motor will still run.  Now this is scary in many ways; for example, on a bumpy ride the key can eject; I will have no way of knowing when and where this will happen.   

I spoke to a Yamaha mechanic who  seem to suggest that I have to change the ignition assembly and also the  ECU that is linked to the immobilizer.

However if you look at the diagram attached, all I seem to need is 31, but it seems reasonable to include 32, new key, and 33,34,and 35 for aesthetic reasons.

I am aware that a new key will imply also changing the locks for the seat and any other associated locks( in my case only the lock of the seat.  I do have the original red key which allows me to duplicate new keys without having to change the ECU.

Your guidance please

« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 01:35:29 pm by Mzee »
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Offline swakop_toe

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2018, 02:00:10 pm »
I am sure the key is coded to the ECU.
For example, you have to clone the keys in order for the ECU to read them.

Changing the key bitings, because you've now got a new barrel,....

Wait, it should work. Merely clone the keys onto the new key's bitings profile of the new barrel.
 

Offline gastank

Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2018, 04:19:52 pm »
I tie my key with a piece of string to the handle bars :)
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Offline Bundu

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2018, 06:12:37 pm »
I tie my key with a piece of string to the handle bars :)

similar here - I don't like to have different sets of keys for house, remote, bike or car, so I have two sets, one for car and one for bike, but the KTM has limited space near the ignition, so I came up with this pooratech - works well

« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 02:18:42 pm by Bundu »
 

Offline Mzee

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2018, 07:28:36 am »
I am sure the key is coded to the ECU.
For example, you have to clone the keys in order for the ECU to read them.

Changing the key bitings, because you've now got a new barrel,....

Wait, it should work. Merely clone the keys onto the new key's bitings profile of the new barrel.

Thank you, what does not seem clear from your contribution is whether changing the barrel requires that I change the ECU also, merely changing the barrel and cloning the keys is sufficient to solve the problem. :ricky:
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Offline Mzee

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2018, 07:29:59 am »
Gastank and Bundu thanks for your solutions.  I have considered that but would like to know if it is possible to solve this problem, the mechanical way.

Bundu it has been a while, how are you doing mate? :ricky:
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Offline Bundu

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2018, 08:34:38 am »
Gastank and Bundu thanks for your solutions.  I have considered that but would like to know if it is possible to solve this problem, the mechanical way.

Bundu it has been a while, how are you doing mate? :ricky:

doing fine thanks Mzee  :thumleft:
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Offline Bundu

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2018, 09:08:12 am »
Mzee just something I was wondering, perhaps stupid, but are you sure it's the barrel that's worn and not maybe only the key? tested with master key?
 
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Offline Welsh

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2018, 09:43:36 am »
Mzee just something I was wondering, perhaps stupid, but are you sure it's the barrel that's worn and not maybe only the key? tested with master key?

I was about to ask the same question.  :sip:

I try to have the minimum keys hanging from an ignition for exactly this reason, drives me nuts when I see people with a bundle of house keys all hanging from the cars ignition key.  ::)
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 09:46:13 am by Welsh »
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Offline swakop_toe

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2018, 01:11:41 pm »
I am sure the key is coded to the ECU.
For example, you have to clone the keys in order for the ECU to read them.

Changing the key bitings, because you've now got a new barrel,....

Wait, it should work. Merely clone the keys onto the new key's bitings profile of the new barrel.

Thank you, what does not seem clear from your contribution is whether changing the barrel requires that I change the ECU also, merely changing the barrel and cloning the keys is sufficient to solve the problem. :ricky:
The barrel is not coded to the ECU, it's merely the mechanism for the key to match up to so it can be rotated, enabling the contacts to line up and all the electronics to fire up.

The chip in the key body is coded to the ECU. The key bitings allows the barrel to rotate, energising the electronics, allowing the ECU to pair with the key, allowing the bike to start up.

But don't take my word for it.
 This is my laymen understanding from studying the XT's electronics diagram in the Service Manual.

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Offline swakop_toe

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2018, 01:16:19 pm »
Mzee just something I was wondering, perhaps stupid, but are you sure it's the barrel that's worn and not maybe only the key? tested with master key?
MZee, Bundu's suspicion might carry more weight than the barrel being the culprit.

I also pointed to the keys in the ADV Riders forum when you issues starting your XT a while back.

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Offline eberhard

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2018, 02:10:05 pm »
I had a similar problem where the key would fall out and the bike would keep going. After I’ve lost three keys, I did the following:

I tied a string to the key and the handle bar. Next I took the key (made sure I had an original spare from which to cut another one if needed) and with a fine punch I moered the teeth of the new key selectively. I did this to so very slightly “expand” the teeth for better grip, better contact, better whatever. It solved my problem. Bike would switch off / on when I turn the key as required and the key never fell out again. I never the less kept the string on for in case.
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Offline Mzee

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2018, 08:28:46 pm »
Mzee just something I was wondering, perhaps stupid, but are you sure it's the barrel that's worn and not maybe only the key? tested with master key?

Good point Bundu.  I have used mostly one key.  I do have the spare key and the master key.  I will check and give feed back. Thanks for this one. :ricky:
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Offline Mzee

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2018, 08:33:56 pm »
Gastank and Bundu thanks for your solutions.  I have considered that but would like to know if it is possible to solve this problem, the mechanical way.

Bundu it has been a while, how are you doing mate? :ricky:

doing fine thanks Mzee  :thumleft:
How many kms on your S10 now?

I have 144,000kms.  I have ridden it every day since I bought it.  The motor is still excellent, pulls like the day I bought it, no smoking.  I change oil at 5000kms and use only mineral oil.  However, other parts are beginning to get rattly so, I am begun to put on new stuff: new wheel bearings, new rear disc and a few others that have been changed and will be changed.  :thumleft:
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Offline Mzee

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2018, 08:37:58 pm »
I had a similar problem where the key would fall out and the bike would keep going. After I’ve lost three keys, I did the following:

I tied a string to the key and the handle bar. Next I took the key (made sure I had an original spare from which to cut another one if needed) and with a fine punch I moered the teeth of the new key selectively. I did this to so very slightly “expand” the teeth for better grip, better contact, better whatever. It solved my problem. Bike would switch off / on when I turn the key as required and the key never fell out again. I never the less kept the string on for in case.

Excellent eberhard, there is another practical solution.  I might have to work with you to sort this out.  I do have all my keys; I have lost none.

From your answers, it occurs to me that if I should change the keys, and the barrel then the ECU might be replaced. Am I reading this right? :sip:
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 08:41:13 pm by Mzee »
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Offline Mzee

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2018, 10:31:45 am »
Mzee just something I was wondering, perhaps stupid, but are you sure it's the barrel that's worn and not maybe only the key? tested with master key?

I was about to ask the same question.  :sip:

I try to have the minimum keys hanging from an ignition for exactly this reason, drives me nuts when I see people with a bundle of house keys all hanging from the cars ignition key.  ::)

Thanks mates!  Bundu's and Welsh suggestion were not superfluous.  I am humbled.  I obeyed their suggestion and took my spare key and red key and inserted them into the cylinder.  Viola they worked!  The explanation then is that the key I use every day is worn out.  It would seem that the barrel is fine and even if it is worn out, it is only marginally. 

It is in order to congratulate these two gentlemen who just saved me a couple of thousands of rands.  :lol8:  So my joy is complete and explainable.   :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :ricky:
« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 10:33:13 am by Mzee »
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Offline eberhard

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2018, 10:38:34 am »
Very glad you got sorted!

It is often the key (worn out) and sometimes a little 'mutilation' on the right spots does the trick. So much the better where you still have an original.  :thumleft:
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Offline Mzee

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2018, 10:40:21 am »
Very glad you got sorted!

It is often the key (worn out) and sometimes a little 'mutilation' on the right spots does the trick. So much the better where you still have an original.  :thumleft:

My sincere gratitude to all of you who came to my rescue with the different suggestions.   I am truly indebted to all of your.  Wild dogs never let you down. :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft: :thumleft:
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Offline Bundu

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2018, 12:02:02 pm »
very happy that you're sorted mate  :thumleft:

wow, 144k km - those S10's are solid bikes  :deal:
 

Offline swakop_toe

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Re: Ignition Connundrum
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2018, 12:06:06 pm »
Ditto. Glad to be of, albeit small, assistance.

Let's keep the STen helpmekaar info flowing. So many gems of solutions that can save us thousands, just a bitch often to sift through all the white noise.

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« Last Edit: July 02, 2018, 12:06:34 pm by swakop_toe »