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Offline Kortbroek

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2018, 01:59:34 pm »
...and the toughest oke on the planet, Bear Grylls, rides a Tiger! O0

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Offline Sylvester

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2018, 02:23:27 pm »
You can achieve higher revs from an engine with smaller/lighter pistons, and with higher revs, you are able to get more power.  Moto GP and Grand Prix engines always use the maximum allowable cylinders. With top-end power you will however sacrifice low RPM torque. A twin or tripple engine will therefore generally make more kilowatts than a single engine of the same displacement.  A good current example is the BMW310GS single, making less power than the Kawasaki Versys 300 twin.
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Offline FrancoisTz

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2018, 03:09:04 pm »
Definately not me that has this clever answer, I am only sharing:
The vibration in a 4 cylinder inline comes from having 2 pistons hitting the top as 2 hit the bottom - in this respect it is no smoother than a 180 degree parallel twin. A straight 6 is far superior to a 4 as it doesn't have this up/down opposing motion.
A triple is actually better than a 4 as well, having 120 degrees of crank rotation between each time a piston hits top or bottom, rather than 180 degree intervals. Where it loses is by having 60 degrees of crank rotation where there is no power stroke occurring, which makes power delivery less smooth. A triple also has a propensity to rock lengthways as cylinders 1&3 are near the opposite ends of their strokes simultaneously and with an odd number of cylinders this cannot be cancelled out.

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Offline DouglasN

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Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2018, 03:18:43 pm »

The Tiger 800 has around 79Nm of torque, 70 available from 2000rpm

You can easily pull away from a standing start in ANY gear on a Tiger 800, 1st to 6th, on the 1200's,  better riders than me can do it also, I can only do it up to 4th on an Explorer.

on the 800 and 1200 Tigers, you can be riding at 70km/h in 6th and just open the throttle and go, no coughing & spluttering or jerking, just sa smooth roll-on of power and speed.

Quote from: Fransw on Today at 11:46:59

Yes the torque is nice! Aparantly most of it is available at only 2500rpm..

« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 03:19:10 pm by DouglasN »
-----------------------
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Offline >>Thump°C

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2018, 03:33:13 pm »
Yes, with the triple you can be riding slow in top gear, then open the throttle and the bike accelerates smoothly.
At the same speed on a twin the engine with shudder and feel very rough.
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Offline Offroadrider

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2018, 03:38:24 pm »
Gonna throw a little spanner in the works here, Single vs Twin vs Trip vs 4 cylinder,, the reason for the diff's in power delivery between engines works like this, on a single (4t) you get one power surge every two rotations of the crank, a twin two power strokes, trip 3 etc, what happens on a single is that the tyre/ wheel has more time between power strokes to let the tyre go back to it's original form thus achieving a very high rate of grip with the road surface, a twin has two power strokes per two revolutions which allows 50% less return to a "round" state, a trip and a four cylinder more so, now we go to systems like V motors which generally on adventure type motors have a 270 degree firing rotation  which basically works like bang..bang.......................bang bang....................bang bang....... this brings the power delivery closer to that of a single hence really good grippy power delivery, the 800BM for instance has a 360 Deg crank which works as bang......bang..................... bang.......bang.... which is not quite as agreeable as a v or a paralell twin with a 270 Degree firing order or a Trip which is bang...bang...bang.............bang..bang...bang........ and allows a lot less reformation of the tyre, four cylinders have various firing orders cross plane, big bang, screamers etc but they generally ride on tar where grip is plentiful so what is the best all round for an adventure mix?  either 270 Degree off set crank or a V,twin ,,,,, Yamaha Super tenere 270 degree, 1000 Africa twin 270 degree   or KTM V's, just my 5 cents worth.
 
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Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2018, 03:44:49 pm »
Gonna throw a little spanner in the works here, Single vs Twin vs Trip vs 4 cylinder,, the reason for the diff's in power delivery between engines works like this, on a single (4t) you get one power surge every two rotations of the crank, a twin two power strokes, trip 3 etc, what happens on a single is that the tyre/ wheel has more time between power strokes to let the tyre go back to it's original form thus achieving a very high rate of grip with the road surface, a twin has two power strokes per two revolutions which allows 50% less return to a "round" state, a trip and a four cylinder more so, now we go to systems like V motors which generally on adventure type motors have a 270 degree firing rotation  which basically works like bang..bang.......................bang bang....................bang bang....... this brings the power delivery closer to that of a single hence really good grippy power delivery, the 800BM for instance has a 360 Deg crank which works as bang......bang..................... bang.......bang.... which is not quite as agreeable as a v or a paralell twin with a 270 Degree firing order or a Trip which is bang...bang...bang.............bang..bang...bang........ and allows a lot less reformation of the tyre, four cylinders have various firing orders cross plane, big bang, screamers etc but they generally ride on tar where grip is plentiful so what is the best all round for an adventure mix?  either 270 Degree off set crank or a V,twin ,,,,, Yamaha Super tenere 270 degree, 1000 Africa twin 270 degree   or KTM V's, just my 5 cents worth.


Deadright, and the only possible reason for a twin, triple or 4 cylinder to find it's way into a "D/S" bike frame, is because of tar riding. You need big engines to make decent power, and big engines does not work well as singles.
 

Offline Offroadrider

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2018, 03:51:11 pm »
I have two bikes with 270 deg cranks and they are awsome off road, don't get me wrong I do love the Tiger but it's too much like a 6 speed drill on dirt, spins if you look at the throttle.
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2018, 03:54:48 pm »
Gonna throw a little spanner in the works here, Single vs Twin vs Trip vs 4 cylinder,, the reason for the diff's in power delivery between engines works like this, on a single (4t) you get one power surge every two rotations of the crank, a twin two power strokes, trip 3 etc, what happens on a single is that the tyre/ wheel has more time between power strokes to let the tyre go back to it's original form thus achieving a very high rate of grip with the road surface, a twin has two power strokes per two revolutions which allows 50% less return to a "round" state, a trip and a four cylinder more so, now we go to systems like V motors which generally on adventure type motors have a 270 degree firing rotation  which basically works like bang..bang.......................bang bang....................bang bang....... this brings the power delivery closer to that of a single hence really good grippy power delivery, the 800BM for instance has a 360 Deg crank which works as bang......bang..................... bang.......bang.... which is not quite as agreeable as a v or a paralell twin with a 270 Degree firing order or a Trip which is bang...bang...bang.............bang..bang...bang........ and allows a lot less reformation of the tyre, four cylinders have various firing orders cross plane, big bang, screamers etc but they generally ride on tar where grip is plentiful so what is the best all round for an adventure mix?  either 270 Degree off set crank or a V,twin ,,,,, Yamaha Super tenere 270 degree, 1000 Africa twin 270 degree   or KTM V's, just my 5 cents worth.

Is all this tyre transformation why the KTM 990 eats rear tyres?
 

Offline Offroadrider

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2018, 04:03:23 pm »
Gonna throw a little spanner in the works here, Single vs Twin vs Trip vs 4 cylinder,, the reason for the diff's in power delivery between engines works like this, on a single (4t) you get one power surge every two rotations of the crank, a twin two power strokes, trip 3 etc, what happens on a single is that the tyre/ wheel has more time between power strokes to let the tyre go back to it's original form thus achieving a very high rate of grip with the road surface, a twin has two power strokes per two revolutions which allows 50% less return to a "round" state, a trip and a four cylinder more so, now we go to systems like V motors which generally on adventure type motors have a 270 degree firing rotation  which basically works like bang..bang.......................bang bang....................bang bang....... this brings the power delivery closer to that of a single hence really good grippy power delivery, the 800BM for instance has a 360 Deg crank which works as bang......bang..................... bang.......bang.... which is not quite as agreeable as a v or a paralell twin with a 270 Degree firing order or a Trip which is bang...bang...bang.............bang..bang...bang........ and allows a lot less reformation of the tyre, four cylinders have various firing orders cross plane, big bang, screamers etc but they generally ride on tar where grip is plentiful so what is the best all round for an adventure mix?  either 270 Degree off set crank or a V,twin ,,,,, Yamaha Super tenere 270 degree, 1000 Africa twin 270 degree   or KTM V's, just my 5 cents worth.

Is all this tyre transformation why the KTM 990 eats rear tyres?
The 990 eats tyres due to the abrupt power delivery, KTM's are designed to make hard hitting power  basically having very little at the bottom of the rev range, a point in fact is when I'm in 6th gear on my S10 my mates on 990/1090/1190 bikes are in 4th at best as their bikes can not chug along in top gear at 2000 rpm but that's due to cam profile, ignition mapping and light fly wheel weight
 

Offline Fransw

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2018, 07:36:32 pm »
Gonna throw a little spanner in the works here, Single vs Twin vs Trip vs 4 cylinder,, the reason for the diff's in power delivery between engines works like this, on a single (4t) you get one power surge every two rotations of the crank, a twin two power strokes, trip 3 etc, what happens on a single is that the tyre/ wheel has more time between power strokes to let the tyre go back to it's original form thus achieving a very high rate of grip with the road surface, a twin has two power strokes per two revolutions which allows 50% less return to a "round" state, a trip and a four cylinder more so, now we go to systems like V motors which generally on adventure type motors have a 270 degree firing rotation  which basically works like bang..bang.......................bang bang....................bang bang....... this brings the power delivery closer to that of a single hence really good grippy power delivery, the 800BM for instance has a 360 Deg crank which works as bang......bang..................... bang.......bang.... which is not quite as agreeable as a v or a paralell twin with a 270 Degree firing order or a Trip which is bang...bang...bang.............bang..bang...bang........ and allows a lot less reformation of the tyre, four cylinders have various firing orders cross plane, big bang, screamers etc but they generally ride on tar where grip is plentiful so what is the best all round for an adventure mix?  either 270 Degree off set crank or a V,twin ,,,,, Yamaha Super tenere 270 degree, 1000 Africa twin 270 degree   or KTM V's, just my 5 cents worth.

Thank you for this thorough explanation! Very interesting! :thumleft:
 

Offline Fransw

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2018, 08:33:40 pm »
I have two bikes with 270 deg cranks and they are awsome off road, don't get me wrong I do love the Tiger but it's too much like a 6 speed drill on dirt, spins if you look at the throttle.

@Offroadrider I have a question. I understand now the single, twin or triple thing.. But what about traction control on the 3 cylinder Tiger, won't it cancel out the 'slippyness' of the triple?
 

Offline Offroadrider

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2018, 12:40:34 pm »
The XC never had traction control as far as I know, not sure about the XCX.
I'm not saying the XC is not a capable bike it's a phenominal bike and when compared to the GS800 it's a much more desirable machine,,,, until you get into technical riding with minimal traction then the balance swings then compare the GS800 motor to say the TDM 850 motor that has a 270 Deg crank then the BM would be left wanting.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 12:44:31 pm by Offroadrider »
 

Offline Oilspill

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2018, 01:46:20 pm »
Well I chose and own a XCX Truimph  800 for a number of reasons.     The three cylinders love to rev and the bike will scream to 10000 revs no problem and with an aftermarket can sounds very awesome, like a superbike.    The XCX also has a full electronic package of on road, off road and sport traction control, ABS, and ride by wire throttle settings which work a treat as well as adjustable WP suspension (aka KTM) and comes with a lot of standard kit such as cruise control, information display (eg temp,  distance to empty, etc), centre stand, 2 charge points, bash plates, crash bars, etc, etc.    So the standard bike comes with just about everything you need.    I have only added heated grips and a screen extension (the standard screen is not that great for high speed work)

After 28 0000km in 2.5 years  I can report no problems except with the starter solenoid which needed to be replaced after sitting in water (drain hole blocked) and I am still on the original set of chains and sprockets.  (cleaned and waxed every 500km).    Tires such as Eo7's tend to last about 11000km with hard use  and I have ridden her all over SA and in the Tankwa, etc.  The quality of all parts is top notch and which you learn to appreciate,  for instance stainless steal spokes, non scratch coatings on frame and crashbars, etc, etc.   

Dissadvantages: 
- The Triumph does need a lower first gear,  but only for very slow work, like pushing up a curb from stand still ( fixed in the latest model), but I have never found myself in need of more Torque.  She will pull out in any gear if you find yourself in a technical bit in the wrong gear and the power delivery is very smooth.     
- The default throttle setting is very stiff and slow and tiring on long bits, but if you put it in sport this is sorted and helped with cruise control. 
-  Fuel consumption:   Keep the revs down and ride below 120 kph and she is very easy on fuel.  Ride her like you stole her, rev the hell out of it (which she loves) and the bike turns into a thirsty bitch and will chop through an 18 liter tank very quickly. 

The best thing about this bike is that you can play the gears,   which allows for more rapid progress as you can change down to keep the revs up, which she is happy with,  and immediate acceleration is always waiting for you.  So instead of using torque to push you forward,  you can have all the horsepower immediately on tap....best way to explain it is, drop a gear and disappear.     This is made even more fun with a super smooth gearbox. 
 

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Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2018, 02:40:13 pm »
Well I chose and own a XCX Truimph  800 for a number of reasons.     The three cylinders love to rev and the bike will scream to 10000 revs no problem and with an aftermarket can sounds very awesome, like a superbike.    The XCX also has a full electronic package of on road, off road and sport traction control, ABS, and ride by wire throttle settings which work a treat as well as adjustable WP suspension (aka KTM) and comes with a lot of standard kit such as cruise control, information display (eg temp,  distance to empty, etc), centre stand, 2 charge points, bash plates, crash bars, etc, etc.    So the standard bike comes with just about everything you need.    I have only added heated grips and a screen extension (the standard screen is not that great for high speed work)

After 28 0000km in 2.5 years  I can report no problems except with the starter solenoid which needed to be replaced after sitting in water (drain hole blocked) and I am still on the original set of chains and sprockets.  (cleaned and waxed every 500km).    Tires such as Eo7's tend to last about 11000km with hard use  and I have ridden her all over SA and in the Tankwa, etc.  The quality of all parts is top notch and which you learn to appreciate,  for instance stainless steal spokes, non scratch coatings on frame and crashbars, etc, etc.   

Dissadvantages: 
- The Triumph does need a lower first gear,  but only for very slow work, like pushing up a curb from stand still ( fixed in the latest model), but I have never found myself in need of more Torque.  She will pull out in any gear if you find yourself in a technical bit in the wrong gear and the power delivery is very smooth.     
- The default throttle setting is very stiff and slow and tiring on long bits, but if you put it in sport this is sorted and helped with cruise control. 
-  Fuel consumption:   Keep the revs down and ride below 120 kph and she is very easy on fuel.  Ride her like you stole her, rev the hell out of it (which she loves) and the bike turns into a thirsty bitch and will chop through an 18 liter tank very quickly. 

The best thing about this bike is that you can play the gears,   which allows for more rapid progress as you can change down to keep the revs up, which she is happy with,  and immediate acceleration is always waiting for you.  So instead of using torque to push you forward,  you can have all the horsepower immediately on tap....best way to explain it is, drop a gear and disappear.     This is made even more fun with a super smooth gearbox.

Lack of a good spread of torque often needs playing the gearbox to stay in the "sweet spot". While fun at times, it could be cumbersome at others.
 

Offline Oilspill

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2018, 03:11:25 pm »
Well I chose and own a XCX Truimph  800 for a number of reasons.     The three cylinders love to rev and the bike will scream to 10000 revs no problem and with an aftermarket can sounds very awesome, like a superbike.    The XCX also has a full electronic package of on road, off road and sport traction control, ABS, and ride by wire throttle settings which work a treat as well as adjustable WP suspension (aka KTM) and comes with a lot of standard kit such as cruise control, information display (eg temp,  distance to empty, etc), centre stand, 2 charge points, bash plates, crash bars, etc, etc.    So the standard bike comes with just about everything you need.    I have only added heated grips and a screen extension (the standard screen is not that great for high speed work)

After 28 0000km in 2.5 years  I can report no problems except with the starter solenoid which needed to be replaced after sitting in water (drain hole blocked) and I am still on the original set of chains and sprockets.  (cleaned and waxed every 500km).    Tires such as Eo7's tend to last about 11000km with hard use  and I have ridden her all over SA and in the Tankwa, etc.  The quality of all parts is top notch and which you learn to appreciate,  for instance stainless steal spokes, non scratch coatings on frame and crashbars, etc, etc.   

Dissadvantages: 
- The Triumph does need a lower first gear,  but only for very slow work, like pushing up a curb from stand still ( fixed in the latest model), but I have never found myself in need of more Torque.  She will pull out in any gear if you find yourself in a technical bit in the wrong gear and the power delivery is very smooth.     
- The default throttle setting is very stiff and slow and tiring on long bits, but if you put it in sport this is sorted and helped with cruise control. 
-  Fuel consumption:   Keep the revs down and ride below 120 kph and she is very easy on fuel.  Ride her like you stole her, rev the hell out of it (which she loves) and the bike turns into a thirsty bitch and will chop through an 18 liter tank very quickly. 

The best thing about this bike is that you can play the gears,   which allows for more rapid progress as you can change down to keep the revs up, which she is happy with,  and immediate acceleration is always waiting for you.  So instead of using torque to push you forward,  you can have all the horsepower immediately on tap....best way to explain it is, drop a gear and disappear.     This is made even more fun with a super smooth gearbox.

Lack of a good spread of torque often needs playing the gearbox to stay in the "sweet spot". While fun at times, it could be cumbersome at others.
No you misunderstand. It will pull fine and strong on a very strong torque curve, but add tons of HP  and things get instant. Because of the high revving capabilities of the motor this is fun rather than tiresome as you can hold a low gear from 2500 revs right up to 9500 revs and stay in the sweet spot without changing gear. So in a tight twisty bit you can keep her in third or fourth and just surf the revs without changing gear. Lots of fun.

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Offline Offroadrider

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2018, 08:04:30 pm »
Well I chose and own a XCX Truimph  800 for a number of reasons.     The three cylinders love to rev and the bike will scream to 10000 revs no problem and with an aftermarket can sounds very awesome, like a superbike.    The XCX also has a full electronic package of on road, off road and sport traction control, ABS, and ride by wire throttle settings which work a treat as well as adjustable WP suspension (aka KTM) and comes with a lot of standard kit such as cruise control, information display (eg temp,  distance to empty, etc), centre stand, 2 charge points, bash plates, crash bars, etc, etc.    So the standard bike comes with just about everything you need.    I have only added heated grips and a screen extension (the standard screen is not that great for high speed work)

After 28 0000km in 2.5 years  I can report no problems except with the starter solenoid which needed to be replaced after sitting in water (drain hole blocked) and I am still on the original set of chains and sprockets.  (cleaned and waxed every 500km).    Tires such as Eo7's tend to last about 11000km with hard use  and I have ridden her all over SA and in the Tankwa, etc.  The quality of all parts is top notch and which you learn to appreciate,  for instance stainless steal spokes, non scratch coatings on frame and crashbars, etc, etc.   

Dissadvantages: 
- The Triumph does need a lower first gear,  but only for very slow work, like pushing up a curb from stand still ( fixed in the latest model), but I have never found myself in need of more Torque.  She will pull out in any gear if you find yourself in a technical bit in the wrong gear and the power delivery is very smooth.     
- The default throttle setting is very stiff and slow and tiring on long bits, but if you put it in sport this is sorted and helped with cruise control. 
-  Fuel consumption:   Keep the revs down and ride below 120 kph and she is very easy on fuel.  Ride her like you stole her, rev the hell out of it (which she loves) and the bike turns into a thirsty bitch and will chop through an 18 liter tank very quickly. 

The best thing about this bike is that you can play the gears,   which allows for more rapid progress as you can change down to keep the revs up, which she is happy with,  and immediate acceleration is always waiting for you.  So instead of using torque to push you forward,  you can have all the horsepower immediately on tap....best way to explain it is, drop a gear and disappear.     This is made even more fun with a super smooth gearbox.
@Oilspil please don't get me wrong here, the 800xc is a fantastic bike that you can do almost anything on and I would love to own one, I was only pointing out the diff's in motor configuration, no other mid sized bike can run like a triple when on the cable and it's as smooth as a 20 year old's arse.
 

Offline Cracker

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Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2018, 09:29:21 pm »
Most impressive is the chain and sprockets lasting 28 0000km .......... no wonder they call them Triumphs ...  :thumleft:
Don't let fear hold you back ..... take it with you!
 

Offline WrightJnr

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Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2018, 09:54:32 pm »
I’ve owned the 800 Triple. Also the KTM Adv and now a GSA.

The triple is still my favorite engine. But the chassis and local support for the brand let me down. KTM had best chassis and electronics and a great engine when ridden with enthusiasm. BMW just works, I really do love it but I find it soooooo boring.
 

Offline Oilspill

Re: Twin piston vs Triple piston..
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2018, 07:06:28 am »
I’ve owned the 800 Triple. Also the KTM Adv and now a GSA.

The triple is still my favorite engine. But the chassis and local support for the brand let me down. KTM had best chassis and electronics and a great engine when ridden with enthusiasm. BMW just works, I really do love it but I find it soooooo boring.
Ja suppose you are right. If you want to conquer the world then the BMW, if you want to get there first at all costs then the KTM, if you want to arrive with a smile on your face then the Triumph.

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