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Offline Welsh

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2019, 06:54:50 am »
The voting choices are a bit odd. I could basically just choose "ridden road and dirt".

I have done beginner (multiple times) and intermediate off-road training, but no advanced courses (ditch jumping looks scary).

I've done funduros, but have not raced enduros. Some have tried to get me into the beginners ladies racing scene, but the event costs are high compared to funduros and the crashes are worse at higher speeds. A crash at just 50km/h during a funduro did enough damage to keep me off my dirt bike for 5 months. That's mental anguish I don't want to repeat.

I use my one bike as my daily commuter (come rain or shine or - in 1 case - hail) and for multi-day trips. Yet I've had no accidents on a tar road. My only breaks and sprains resulted from newbie-ness on off-road (when I had <10,000km of riding experience) and dirt bike riding while pushing my own personal envelope.

Longer time in the saddle = more experience and (theoretically at least) less risk
, but there's no measure to indicate this in the poll, other than the "rode less than a year", but some cover 10,000 km/month while others take years to do the same distance. Perhaps a poll of "how many km do you ride per year?" with some options (0-1000km tar; 0-1000km dirt; 1000-5000km tar; 1000-5000km dirt; etc.)? I'd be really interested to see that. Or maybe this has been done before?

Side note: On an organised adventure ride, a guy raced past me on a narrow, rough uphill, basically forcing me to the very edge of the track and almost into a bush. I managed to hold it together, but someone new to riding would have hit the deck. This guy had Roof of Africa background. Yes, he had skills, but he was reckless and thoughtless. Not only did he hurt himself on the trip, when he hit a mud-hole on an otherwise gravel highway, but he showed a 60+ year-old with wife as pillion how to release all 200 ponies on his KTM1290. Later that day, that older rider (who'd never had an accident before) crashed. Pillion had fractured metatarsals (mid-foot toe-bones) and rider was very badly bruised and had to go to a local clinic - did I mention the rider was on Warfarin?

I thought about it long and hard ,I could have had so many options but decided to keep it simple

What you have done is advanced rider training , basic training is what people do to pass their license

Enduro's are longer in time period and would be faster because you do have some really fast people out there , but overall there is not that much difference except that you have far fewer windgat rider in enduro because they don't like being shown up

The biggest thing that training facilities need to overcome is bad habits , these are not necessarily good habits and more often than not tend to slow people down or make them more dangerous without them realising it , so unfortunately time in the saddle is not always a good thing purely because those habits become more ingrained with time 

Refer to my previous post , these type are pure simple windgat and are generally a hindrance to everyone


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Offline Dux

Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2019, 06:57:47 am »
Perhaps a distinction should be made between skilled riding and safe riding.  I've often ridden with people who are just as useless as me on their bikes, BUT THEY KNOW IT, and so they ride slower and with more concentration. Consequently they seldom crash. Others think they're Dakar material after a couple of hours and crash repeatedly.  They might even be able to do amazing stuff on their bikes but they're reckless, thoughtless, careless or just crazy.

Skilled riders are safe riders , they have the ability , they know it and know they have it in reserve if needed , but generally tend to ride safely and well within their comfort zone . When you are riding with skilled riders you will know it , these are the sort of guys that will happily ride  at the back of a group or if they are riding up front they are riding so smooth that they look like they are going for a ride in the parking area , they generally have nothing to prove because the skills are also a mindset .
The other type you are referring to are plain simple windgat riders , they think they are good and tend to ride way above their abilities , and do crash a lot , usually riding with no consideration for others while showing off their so called 'abilities' to all and sundry .

Having grown up riding in muddy wet conditions in Wales, I believe off road riding gives you way more appreciation of surfaces and what grip is (or isn't) available, this helps on both tar and offroad.  8)

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Offline roxenz

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2019, 07:59:39 am »
Good thread! Reading and learning. Coz I detest hospital food and cannot afford a new bike every year, I ride well within my limits (with a few regrettable instances when I found out exactly where those limits are  ;)). The various training folks available in this country can certainly teach the necessary skills to get to the point where one can enjoy riding on most (any?) surfaces. Cannot recommend this enough to anyone who gets that "tense apprehension" feeling when apporoaching sand/loose gravel/mud etc. If one is riding for any reason other than enjoyment (eg. to impress others) then you would be missing the point, I think. I commute daily, rain or shine, and I enjoy it. Although I enjoy long back roads trips the most!

BTW, there is a LOT of stuff to learn behind Welsh's simple observation on reading surfaces...  :thumleft:
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 08:01:00 am by roxenz »
 

Offline Dux

Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2019, 09:04:35 am »
The voting choices are a bit odd. I could basically just choose "ridden road and dirt".

I have done beginner (multiple times) and intermediate off-road training, but no advanced courses (ditch jumping looks scary).

I've done funduros, but have not raced enduros. Some have tried to get me into the beginners ladies racing scene, but the event costs are high compared to funduros and the crashes are worse at higher speeds. A crash at just 50km/h during a funduro did enough damage to keep me off my dirt bike for 5 months. That's mental anguish I don't want to repeat.

I use my one bike as my daily commuter (come rain or shine or - in 1 case - hail) and for multi-day trips. Yet I've had no accidents on a tar road. My only breaks and sprains resulted from newbie-ness on off-road (when I had <10,000km of riding experience) and dirt bike riding while pushing my own personal envelope.

Longer time in the saddle = more experience and (theoretically at least) less risk
, but there's no measure to indicate this in the poll, other than the "rode less than a year", but some cover 10,000 km/month while others take years to do the same distance. Perhaps a poll of "how many km do you ride per year?" with some options (0-1000km tar; 0-1000km dirt; 1000-5000km tar; 1000-5000km dirt; etc.)? I'd be really interested to see that. Or maybe this has been done before?

Side note: On an organised adventure ride, a guy raced past me on a narrow, rough uphill, basically forcing me to the very edge of the track and almost into a bush. I managed to hold it together, but someone new to riding would have hit the deck. This guy had Roof of Africa background. Yes, he had skills, but he was reckless and thoughtless. Not only did he hurt himself on the trip, when he hit a mud-hole on an otherwise gravel highway, but he showed a 60+ year-old with wife as pillion how to release all 200 ponies on his KTM1290. Later that day, that older rider (who'd never had an accident before) crashed. Pillion had fractured metatarsals (mid-foot toe-bones) and rider was very badly bruised and had to go to a local clinic - did I mention the rider was on Warfarin?

I thought about it long and hard ,I could have had so many options but decided to keep it simple

What you have done is advanced rider training , basic training is what people do to pass their license

Enduro's are longer in time period and would be faster because you do have some really fast people out there , but overall there is not that much difference except that you have far fewer windgat rider in enduro because they don't like being shown up

The biggest thing that training facilities need to overcome is bad habits , these are not necessarily good habits and more often than not tend to slow people down or make them more dangerous without them realising it , so unfortunately time in the saddle is not always a good thing purely because those habits become more ingrained with time 

Refer to my previous post , these type are pure simple windgat and are generally a hindrance to everyone


All those colours do y eyes in.  :biggrin:

After a few whisky's they start looking better  :biggrin:
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Offline Odd Dog

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2019, 10:10:22 am »
Been riding for 57yrs, raced for about  12yrs in total, mx, enduro and early years sidecar dirt tracks.
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Offline Welsh

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2019, 12:28:17 pm »
Good thread! Reading and learning. Coz I detest hospital food and cannot afford a new bike every year, I ride well within my limits (with a few regrettable instances when I found out exactly where those limits are  ;)). The various training folks available in this country can certainly teach the necessary skills to get to the point where one can enjoy riding on most (any?) surfaces. Cannot recommend this enough to anyone who gets that "tense apprehension" feeling when apporoaching sand/loose gravel/mud etc. If one is riding for any reason other than enjoyment (eg. to impress others) then you would be missing the point, I think. I commute daily, rain or shine, and I enjoy it. Although I enjoy long back roads trips the most!

BTW, there is a LOT of stuff to learn behind Welsh's simple observation on reading surfaces...  :thumleft:

We don't have a lot of good riding close by up here, but an old favourite is always the canals after the rains, I have witnessed carnage in places like the Brits railway yard, one guy can ride the mud with worn knobblies as if its a grass field, to the next guy on the same bike with brand new knobblies its an impassible quagmire? The same along the canals, the black snot clay would stop some guys dead, others no issue just keep it rolling...     

A bit of experience in kak conditions goes a long way.  :sip:
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Offline BabyBeemer

Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2019, 12:37:18 pm »
I rode from the age of 12 until around 26.  Had a break until the age of 44.  Riding the last 9 years - done around 160,000 kays - difficult to say how much dirt - not as much as I would like.  Have done some intermediate off road courses.  I am better than some - and not as good as some.  It seems that self confidence and the lack of fear of messing your bike up makes some appear better than others.  I am more comfortable doing more off road stuff on a smaller bike.  The GS is great for long distance touring and I do orange routes - with pillion.  Very difficult to rate yourself, and your perceived skill level is dependant on who you are riding with.
 

Offline Cracker

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2019, 02:45:51 pm »
Still racing ...................... pretty crap at it but I enjoy the hit  :thumleft:
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Offline jaybiker

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2019, 04:37:41 pm »
Never done a day's training  :-[ and the nearest I've ever come to competition was the informal trail bike trials that we used to organise back in the stone (mud) age.
Plus the informal 'road races' that were our normal riding style even when riding to work, shops, filling station and everywhere else.  :-[ :-[

As I said in a previous post. SHEER BLOODY LUCK!  :eek7: :peepwall:
 

Offline dirt rat

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2019, 06:19:35 am »
Once or twice a year I get to riding with a German friend of mine - Jens Thallman.
Jens can ride a bit - he has two world titles in team enduro riding for the old East Germany and is still a sponsored racer today.
Some things I have learnt from him is the following.
To ride fast first you have to ride smooth.
To finish first you have to first finish.
Dual sport riding is not a race.
He maintains a speed of about 90km per hour but very seldom drops below that which makes him deceptively fast in the twisties on dirt.
I have never seen him wheelie or powerslide his bike.
 

Offline Oubones

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2019, 06:34:59 am »
Once or twice a year I get to riding with a German friend of mine - Jens Thallman.
Jens can ride a bit - he has two world titles in team enduro riding for the old East Germany and is still a sponsored racer today.
Some things I have learnt from him is the following.
To ride fast first you have to ride smooth.
To finish first you have to first finish.
Dual sport riding is not a race.
He maintains a speed of about 90km per hour but very seldom drops below that which makes him deceptively fast in the twisties on dirt.
I have never seen him wheelie or powerslide his bike.
Wise man!
Dual sport/ Adventure riding is about getting there and back while enjoying the ride( not race)
I only ride with guys that have my viewpoint of all off us getting there no matter what!
I have had guys waiting a lot for me because off my pace and have also used more brakes than throttle on another ride, with some off the same riders on other terrain.
I believe you must be honest with yourself as to your skill level and ride accordingly.
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Offline dirt rat

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2019, 06:41:24 am »
Oubones - waneer slaap jy ?
 

Offline Dux

Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2019, 07:03:57 am »
Once or twice a year I get to riding with a German friend of mine - Jens Thallman.
Jens can ride a bit - he has two world titles in team enduro riding for the old East Germany and is still a sponsored racer today.
Some things I have learnt from him is the following.
To ride fast first you have to ride smooth.
To finish first you have to first finish.

Dual sport riding is not a race.
He maintains a speed of about 90km per hour but very seldom drops below that which makes him deceptively fast in the twisties on dirt.
I have never seen him wheelie or powerslide his bike.

I was also taught that ,  smoothness and consistency , there is another advantage to riding smoother , staying more in shape you are using less energy so you quite often arrive at a destination fresher than other '' windgat ''  riders .
Your friend has skill , he doesn't need to  prove anything , and I am certain that if the need arose he would be able to wheelie or slide his way out of trouble anyway .
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Offline dirt rat

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2019, 07:10:19 am »
Of course lifting the front wheel and powerslides must be part of your riding skills - when applied in the right circumstances.
 

Offline Oubones

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2019, 07:33:39 am »
Oubones - waneer slaap jy ?
Nee jong, seun wat standby in mediese veld doen elke tweede week en vrou wat vol pyne is!
Slaap is min! :peepwall:
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Offline dirt rat

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2019, 07:44:55 am »
Net een pil vir jou - Kaokoland
 

Offline Oubones

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2019, 08:03:32 am »
Dakar 650
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Offline Welsh

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2019, 08:14:45 am »
Once or twice a year I get to riding with a German friend of mine - Jens Thallman.
Jens can ride a bit - he has two world titles in team enduro riding for the old East Germany and is still a sponsored racer today.
Some things I have learnt from him is the following.
To ride fast first you have to ride smooth.
To finish first you have to first finish.
Dual sport riding is not a race.
He maintains a speed of about 90km per hour but very seldom drops below that which makes him deceptively fast in the twisties on dirt.
I have never seen him wheelie or powerslide his bike.

Back in the day, the East German MZ's in the ISDT were butt ugly but very competitive, they had a crank mounted clutch (aka the 450 BMW) and were designed to be ridden smoothly SITTING, they didn't think standing for 6 days was feasible. Smooth and fast.  :sip: 
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Offline dirt rat

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Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2019, 08:44:17 am »
Jens competed on a 80cc 2stroke Simson. Never heard of it before but saw some Simson road bikes on my visit to Germany.
 

Offline Weedkiller - Adie

Re: Riding experience and riding abilities
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2019, 09:32:08 am »
Thinking abut it, I ride so relaxed, at any speed, that my arms/wrists/hands almost never get tired or sore, even on consecutive 600km plus days.  The fact that I am very light on the throttle and brakes 90% of the time also make tires last longer. (More money for riding)  I sit more than 90% of the time even if road is technical or sand.  I basically only stand if I want to attack the corners and then I'll be heavy on brakes and throttle as well or if road conditions REALLY require that.

In my books you don't need to stand under 'normal' riding speeds. It is a mental thing as standing you 'detach' yourself from the bike and do not feel how 'alive' the bike is.  Traction, G forces centrifugal forces are all linked to the speed you travel.  I don't even notice the bike underneath me anymore.  Standing WILL ALLOW the bike to react quicker on inputs while standing as it is now a separate 'moment' in the inertia equation which have POSITIVE and potential safety effects.

II DON'T SAY YOU DON'T NEED TO STAND. Just seen a few spills where 'too much standing' caused tiredness and the resultant 'oops'. Most riders I've seen who almost never stand also ride slower to accommodate.

Ek is 'n luigat so ry maar so sit sit.  >:D

Adie
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