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Author Topic: LightWeight A/T coming Current A/T getting bigger engine/ more Electronics.MCN  (Read 2102 times)

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Online LouisXander

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Clearly Honda is setting the trend in the 450 category.....
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Hey Mr Engineer, maybe you must go into your glory years at Yamaha and get them to manufacture a proper RSA spec midsize!!!!
I am working for the Japs at the moment, I don’t need a second stint of it.  :sip:
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Just a linear transfer then Man....so much easier!! :imaposer:
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Offline Dux

Maybe Honda surprises us all and comes up with a 650 class single to compete with Ktm 690 Husky 701.
Imagine that. :drif
:

It will definatly be a twin. Otherwise A/T cannot be used. Maybe they rework the Transalp engine. What a great motor.

No , that is old technology , they will more than likely bring out a new design based on the AT , who knows , maybe they bring out a 750/800 and call it a Transalp  :thumleft:
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An hopefully go back to a 21" front
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Offline Bwana

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I am sure it will be a 21 inch. The trend now is to build more off road ADV bikes. The new Yamaha T7 I believe has just raised the bar if you read the reviews and look what you getting for the price.
 

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I am sure it will be a 21 inch. The trend now is to build more off road ADV bikes. The new Yamaha T7 I believe has just raised the bar if you read the reviews and look what you getting for the price.

You must be reading different reports to me?  :o
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Offline Bwana

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You must be reading different reports to me?  :

I have yet to hear or read a bad report on the new Yamaha T700 please inform me if their is one I would like to read it as I really like this bike.
 

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You must be reading different reports to me?  :

I have yet to hear or read a bad report on the new Yamaha T700 please inform me if their is one I would like to read it as I really like this bike.
Some member here sat on it at the London motorcycle show and said something about the clutch actuator being in the way of his foot or leg but I have not read any such issues from the testers. Oh and some guys do not like the blue rims  ::) Other than that positive all the way.
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http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=134175.0 Penge's pass and the Old Forest http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=9421.0 - Orange Atlantic adventure http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=7514.0 - 805 km day trip http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=20260.0 - East Cape Bash http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=70199.0 - Two KTM thumpers head north
 

Offline edgy

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You must be reading different reports to me?  :o
Please show what reports you are reading?? ???
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Online Xpat

You must be reading different reports to me?  :o
Please show what reports you are reading?? ???

I believe this is off-topic, as this is AT thread, but since we are not likely to see anything on that any time soon, here goes:

While I agree that most reports seem pretty positive, you have to take into account that these are from fully catered Yamaha launch (have you seen any negative reports from launch of any bike recently - or ever really?), so one has to take everything they write with grain of salt naturally. I also believe that everybody seems elated, because they primarily compare T700 to the big fatso bikes currently peddled as 'adventure bikes' (be it 1200s of supposed 'middle weights' - sic - like GS850 or Tiger). The big elephant in the room everybody tries to avoid direct comparison is of course 790 (number of people mentioned it in review but tried to avoid direct comparison, mostly quoting difference in price - which may or may not matter to end user).

I think for an average adventure rider this is going to be good bike - probably great (people who liked XT660Z are going to love this one IMO), but if you watch/read closely, there are number of hints of potential issues (as with any other bike). The very first English review while trying to sound positive, seemed to me actually pretty bitter-sweet (partially to be fair, because the bike will not be available in US till next year). Here it is:

https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/yamaha/2021-yamaha-tenere-700-review-first-ride.html

Here few critical snippets from that review:

"While fueling is very well-tuned on the Tenere 700, there is a fair bit of driveline lash when rolling the throttle back on. So much so that during our test ride through sinuous Spanish single-lane roads, a touch of clutch modulation was required to keep the Tenere from lurching forward when getting on the gas."

"Braking components are provided by Brembo both front and rear. On the street, the Tenere’s dual 282mm rotors are slowed easily by the two-piston Brembo calipers, and while they don’t offer superbike feel, they get the job done. Off-road is a different story. The feeling is somewhat vague, which combined with a fairly touchy lever, is hardly confidence inspiring. And then there’s the rear brake. A light switch offers better modulation than the Tenere’s rear brake. "

This one bothers me personally most as this was big problem for me on XT660Z (full disclosure: I really learned to dislike that bike a lot so I'm watching this bike with probably too much of suspicion) - and yes, there were more people reporting on this, including Czech reviewer on Czech motorcycle site:

"Overall, the rider triangle is still in all of the right places while standing, but the width of the bike around the tank and the engine was a bit of a surprise. I like to be able to “choke up” onto an adventure bike when riding in sandy or rocky conditions or simply while cornering to put more weight over the front wheel. Although the bike offers room to move around, the width of the 4.2-gallon tank between the knees doesn’t allow the rider to move forward very far. Furthermore, down at the right boot, the clutch cover and the protective plastic shield for the clutch’s actuation lever were pushing my right foot out and away from the rear brake pedal causing an awkward feeling of reaching my toes back beneath the protruding engine case to get to the rear brake. A set of rally footpegs, like the set I installed on the KTM 1190, would be one of my first purchases if I found myself with a new Tenere 700 in the garage, probably some sort of elongated brake pedal while we’re at it, too."

THe Italian enthusiast journo who published the first video (the one who screamed with so much joy on 790 launch, while chasing Coma) mentioned - if subtitles are to be believed - that the bike is quite top heavy when riding slowly.

None of these are showstoppers IMO and the bike will serve majority of adv riders well, but for some like me they may potentially sway me from the bike. I ride a lot of sand and XT660Z was probably the worst bike in the sand I have ridden (I found GSA1150 easier in sand than Tenere), because of the high stance and ergos. This new one has much much better engine and hopefully better suspension, but the concern about high COG remains for me.

I personally also don't like that they haven't kept one feature on XT660Z I actually liked - those crash panels on the side that were so good at protecting the bike that one didn't need crashbars. This for me is massive plus for 790 - I hate crashbars on bikes and believe that bikes that are supposed to go offroad as this one is, should be build to crash well out of the box.

As said, I think this bike will make many people who do not want to push their adventures too hard happy - that engine is really peach (75 HP or whatever is plenty) and I like the lack of electronics, but if I'm looking considering whether to buy one or not, I remain skeptical because of those things above (primarily ergos and high COG).

But let's see - I have written this bike off as my  potential next bike some time ago, but the positive reviews it gets will probably nudge me to at least test ride it if I ever go twin cylinder adv bike again.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 05:03:48 pm by Xpat »
 

Offline Bwana

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Very Inyeresting thanks for that. There is no Doubt the KTM 790 is the current bench mark on Light weight Twins but it is pricey and it is a KTM so the glitches will come out.Honda has said it is going for that market how they do it is going to be interesting I hope they dont go for lots of electronics. I do not believe it is nessasary on the smaller bikes.
 

Online LouisXander

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KTM 790 - 189kg dry weight.  2019

Suzuki 650 Strom - 194kg dry weight. Since 2001?

Not really a leader I'd say..... :peepwall:
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Offline Bwana

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I dont understand are you putting that tired old Suzuki in the same class and performance as the KTM 790. :pot:
 

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Just an old example to compare with the new fatty on the block. :imaposer:

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At least you drive an Isuzu. We have something in common :imaposer:
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Offline Dux

Very Inyeresting thanks for that. There is no Doubt the KTM 790 is the current bench mark on Light weight Twins but it is pricey and it is a KTM so the glitches will come out.Honda has said it is going for that market how they do it is going to be interesting I hope they dont go for lots of electronics. I do not believe it is nessasary on the smaller bikes.
I doubt that Honda would go into direct competition with the KTM 790 , you will probably find a bike a few kg heavier , a few HP less , but far more user friendly .
Electronics whether we like it or not is here to stay , so expect it to have ABS , TC and whatever else is deemed necessary .
Wheel size will realistically be 18/21 although I wouldn't be surprised to also find a 17/19 alternative for those that are a bit shorter .
But whatever happens I am sure it will be a good bike .
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Offline sidetrack

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You must be reading different reports to me?  :o
Please show what reports you are reading?? ???

I believe this is off-topic, as this is AT thread, but since we are not likely to see anything on that any time soon, here goes:

While I agree that most reports seem pretty positive, you have to take into account that these are from fully catered Yamaha launch (have you seen any negative reports from launch of any bike recently - or ever really?), so one has to take everything they write with grain of salt naturally. I also believe that everybody seems elated, because they primarily compare T700 to the big fatso bikes currently peddled as 'adventure bikes' (be it 1200s of supposed 'middle weights' - sic - like GS850 or Tiger). The big elephant in the room everybody tries to avoid direct comparison is of course 790 (number of people mentioned it in review but tried to avoid direct comparison, mostly quoting difference in price - which may or may not matter to end user).

I think for an average adventure rider this is going to be good bike - probably great (people who liked XT660Z are going to love this one IMO), but if you watch/read closely, there are number of hints of potential issues (as with any other bike). The very first English review while trying to sound positive, seemed to me actually pretty bitter-sweet (partially to be fair, because the bike will not be available in US till next year). Here it is:

https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/yamaha/2021-yamaha-tenere-700-review-first-ride.html

Here few critical snippets from that review:

"While fueling is very well-tuned on the Tenere 700, there is a fair bit of driveline lash when rolling the throttle back on. So much so that during our test ride through sinuous Spanish single-lane roads, a touch of clutch modulation was required to keep the Tenere from lurching forward when getting on the gas."

"Braking components are provided by Brembo both front and rear. On the street, the Tenere’s dual 282mm rotors are slowed easily by the two-piston Brembo calipers, and while they don’t offer superbike feel, they get the job done. Off-road is a different story. The feeling is somewhat vague, which combined with a fairly touchy lever, is hardly confidence inspiring. And then there’s the rear brake. A light switch offers better modulation than the Tenere’s rear brake. "

This one bothers me personally most as this was big problem for me on XT660Z (full disclosure: I really learned to dislike that bike a lot so I'm watching this bike with probably too much of suspicion) - and yes, there were more people reporting on this, including Czech reviewer on Czech motorcycle site:

"Overall, the rider triangle is still in all of the right places while standing, but the width of the bike around the tank and the engine was a bit of a surprise. I like to be able to “choke up” onto an adventure bike when riding in sandy or rocky conditions or simply while cornering to put more weight over the front wheel. Although the bike offers room to move around, the width of the 4.2-gallon tank between the knees doesn’t allow the rider to move forward very far. Furthermore, down at the right boot, the clutch cover and the protective plastic shield for the clutch’s actuation lever were pushing my right foot out and away from the rear brake pedal causing an awkward feeling of reaching my toes back beneath the protruding engine case to get to the rear brake. A set of rally footpegs, like the set I installed on the KTM 1190, would be one of my first purchases if I found myself with a new Tenere 700 in the garage, probably some sort of elongated brake pedal while we’re at it, too."

THe Italian enthusiast journo who published the first video (the one who screamed with so much joy on 790 launch, while chasing Coma) mentioned - if subtitles are to be believed - that the bike is quite top heavy when riding slowly.

None of these are showstoppers IMO and the bike will serve majority of adv riders well, but for some like me they may potentially sway me from the bike. I ride a lot of sand and XT660Z was probably the worst bike in the sand I have ridden (I found GSA1150 easier in sand than Tenere), because of the high stance and ergos. This new one has much much better engine and hopefully better suspension, but the concern about high COG remains for me.

I personally also don't like that they haven't kept one feature on XT660Z I actually liked - those crash panels on the side that were so good at protecting the bike that one didn't need crashbars. This for me is massive plus for 790 - I hate crashbars on bikes and believe that bikes that are supposed to go offroad as this one is, should be build to crash well out of the box.

As said, I think this bike will make many people who do not want to push their adventures too hard happy - that engine is really peach (75 HP or whatever is plenty) and I like the lack of electronics, but if I'm looking considering whether to buy one or not, I remain skeptical because of those things above (primarily ergos and high COG).

But let's see - I have written this bike off as my  potential next bike some time ago, but the positive reviews it gets will probably nudge me to at least test ride it if I ever go twin cylinder adv bike again.
One is looking in the wrong place if you are expecting a radical different lightweight high HP DS bikes from a Japanese manufacturer. This bike seems at least much better than the 660Z, more power en a bit lighter while still being reliable. For 90% of the people this bike will work just fine for their intended purpose.  I also like the lack of electronics
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Ride reports :
http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=134175.0 Penge's pass and the Old Forest http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=9421.0 - Orange Atlantic adventure http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=7514.0 - 805 km day trip http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=20260.0 - East Cape Bash http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=70199.0 - Two KTM thumpers head north
 

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Xpat, ping Strokeher, that oke will teach you how to ride a 660Z.

At least Yamaha doesn't pull the KTM fraud deal by showing Birch on the bike, to make it seem better.
 

Online Xpat

One is looking in the wrong place if you are expecting a radical different lightweight high HP DS bikes from a Japanese manufacturer. This bike seems at least much better than the 660Z, more power en a bit lighter while still being reliable. For 90% of the people this bike will work just fine for their intended purpose.  I also like the lack of electronics
[/quote]

And where did I complain about power or weight? I said - repeatedly that 75 hp is plenty and that the engine is peach - I've spent a month in Alps with that engine. All I mentioned is  possibly compromised ergos and high COG, which is clearly a concern with that high engine and seeing that Yamaha didn't bother to do anything about it (like underseat tank or something). I suspect this bike is going to be handful in sand - that is probably why Yamaha let journ's ride it only on smooth dirt highways.

I said clearly that this bike will be compared to 790. And primarily for me because of handling - i.e. ergonomics and suspension. Both of them have good engine, no doubt about it. And KTM clearly at least try to address those by the low tank and resulting slim profile allowing rider to move about freely - which is even more important on these mastodonts (because that is what both of these bikes still are) than on lightweight dual sport.

660 was just such a pig when one had to stand with legs far apart (about the same as on 1150 GSA) and couldn't get properly over the front because of the wide tank, standing awkwardly with knees sticking out. And the stepped high seat in combination with shitty shock was just exclusively stupid idea - one of the Shimwell guys got knocked over handlebars by that seat. At least this one has flat seat.

But I will let you Jap fanboys be now - hell, you are a sensitive bunch of people (for good reason considering the long term slim pickings in the Jap model range).  :lol8: