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Online paule

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Lithium-ion battery
« on: July 23, 2019, 12:46:49 pm »
So I needed a new battery for scoot. Move with the times and buy Lithium at a premium cost.
Only to find out my C-Tech charger cannot be used on it?
The Lithium instructions say under charging "charge the lithium battery with a conventional lead acid battery 12v charger ( without function of automatic desulfation or pulse charging function"?
The C-tech charger uses automatic desulfation?
What now?
 

Offline Noneking

Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2019, 01:19:34 pm »
Yes it needs a special charger as far as I know.
Do you need to charge it now or are you referring to keeping it on a trickle charge.

As I understand it, they keep their charge much better than conventional batteries and theoretically don’t need to be kept on a trickle charge if you’re not riding your bike for prolonged periods?
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Offline Noneking

Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2019, 01:21:39 pm »
I found this quite informative. Pros and cons and characteristics if each type of bike battery

https://youtu.be/3ywopGAXP-I
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Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2019, 01:29:25 pm »
You can use any old dumb charger.
 
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Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2019, 02:03:38 pm »
So I needed a new battery for scoot. Move with the times and buy Lithium at a premium cost.
Only to find out my C-Tech charger cannot be used on it?
The Lithium instructions say under charging "charge the lithium battery with a conventional lead acid battery 12v charger ( without function of automatic desulfation or pulse charging function"?
The C-tech charger uses automatic desulfation?
What now?

Charge it in the bike.
 

Offline Bullet

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2019, 02:46:02 pm »
You can use any old dumb charger.
You can but the battery wont charge well because the ideal charge voltage for LiFe battery is different to that of a lead acid. It also normally charges at a completely different current which allows for much faster charge. The Lithium batteries also don't really require conditioning charges because they don't leak like a lead acid battery. The only time you may need a charger is if you have run the battery down to below 8v. You then need a proper LiFePO charger to revive it. I bought an Optimate charger - model LiFePO4 for batteries from 2 to 100Amp. I don't really leave it connected but do use it every now and then just to check the status of my battery and "repair" any anomalies You can find the Optimate for between R850 and R1200 in SA.

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Offline Bullet

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2019, 03:01:02 pm »
From Optimate website:

So, what do we do differently and why?

Saving a low volt lithium battery – There are NO lead-acid chargers that can effectively SAVE a lithium battery that is discharged below 8 Volts. In fact, the opposite is true, a lead-acid charger is more likely to kill that weak lithium battery!
A lead-acid charger is designed to deliver high current at low volts, exactly the opposite that a lithium battery needs when completely discharged. A lithium battery below 8 Volts is in an unbalanced and sensitive state, cells are at different resistances; applying high current will develop different voltages across the cells and the weakest is most likely to develop too high a voltage, which will effectively kill that cell and cause a short circuit. Then there are 3 cells left, each with increased over voltage …..  rapidly there will be none!

OptiMate Lithium’s SAVE mode has been developed following extensive R & D how to bring back low voltage lithium cells safely. If a cell had developed damage during the deep discharge OptiMate Lithium will detect that and stop charging, preventing unnecessary overcharging of healthy cells or overheating the battery.

TIP on jump starting a low volt lithium battery: DON’T! As soon as the vehicle engine fires up very high current is delivered to the battery and the unbalanced cells will suffer. Rather SAVE and CHARGE it with an OptiMate Lithium! 

Correctly charging a lithium battery – A fact that no one can dispute – lithium batteries are voltage sensitive, they cannot accept higher than their maximum rated voltage! LiFePO4 cell’s ideal maximum charge voltage is 3.6V, calculating to 14.4V per 4 cell battery. Some advanced cells are able to accept a slight over voltage for short periods of time, up to 3.65V per cell, calculating to 14.6V on the vehicle. Over that all cells rapidly become ‘seat heaters’ and then they die!
OptiMate Lithium’s multi step charge mode is specifically designed to recharge lithium batteries to 100% and no more. The unique pulsing equalization mode removes the need to individually balance cells.

Maintaining a lithium battery – Lead-acid batteries have a higher internal drain and that demands continuous charge to keep them at 100%. Lead-acid maintainers are designed to do that.
Lithium batteries have a very low internal drain and do not need continuous maintenance, it will in fact weaken the battery over time.
Once a lithium battery is fully charged (100%) it cannot, should not, receive further charging. Best practice is to charge the battery to full, and then only recharge it when the charge level has dropped a few points below 100%. OptiMate Lithium’s maintenance charge mode automatically does that, it monitors the battery charge level and delivers charge only when the battery needs it.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 03:04:15 pm by Bullet »
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Offline the_BOBNOB

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2019, 03:32:13 pm »
From Optimate website:

So, what do we do differently and why?

Saving a low volt lithium battery – There are NO lead-acid chargers that can effectively SAVE a lithium battery that is discharged below 8 Volts. In fact, the opposite is true, a lead-acid charger is more likely to kill that weak lithium battery!
A lead-acid charger is designed to deliver high current at low volts, exactly the opposite that a lithium battery needs when completely discharged. A lithium battery below 8 Volts is in an unbalanced and sensitive state, cells are at different resistances; applying high current will develop different voltages across the cells and the weakest is most likely to develop too high a voltage, which will effectively kill that cell and cause a short circuit. Then there are 3 cells left, each with increased over voltage …..  rapidly there will be none!

OptiMate Lithium’s SAVE mode has been developed following extensive R & D how to bring back low voltage lithium cells safely. If a cell had developed damage during the deep discharge OptiMate Lithium will detect that and stop charging, preventing unnecessary overcharging of healthy cells or overheating the battery.

TIP on jump starting a low volt lithium battery: DON’T! As soon as the vehicle engine fires up very high current is delivered to the battery and the unbalanced cells will suffer. Rather SAVE and CHARGE it with an OptiMate Lithium! 

Correctly charging a lithium battery – A fact that no one can dispute – lithium batteries are voltage sensitive, they cannot accept higher than their maximum rated voltage! LiFePO4 cell’s ideal maximum charge voltage is 3.6V, calculating to 14.4V per 4 cell battery. Some advanced cells are able to accept a slight over voltage for short periods of time, up to 3.65V per cell, calculating to 14.6V on the vehicle. Over that all cells rapidly become ‘seat heaters’ and then they die!
OptiMate Lithium’s multi step charge mode is specifically designed to recharge lithium batteries to 100% and no more. The unique pulsing equalization mode removes the need to individually balance cells.

Maintaining a lithium battery – Lead-acid batteries have a higher internal drain and that demands continuous charge to keep them at 100%. Lead-acid maintainers are designed to do that.
Lithium batteries have a very low internal drain and do not need continuous maintenance, it will in fact weaken the battery over time.
Once a lithium battery is fully charged (100%) it cannot, should not, receive further charging. Best practice is to charge the battery to full, and then only recharge it when the charge level has dropped a few points below 100%. OptiMate Lithium’s maintenance charge mode automatically does that, it monitors the battery charge level and delivers charge only when the battery needs it.

From that it does not sounds to me as if it is worth the effort to go with a lithium battery.

What happens if you depleted the battery to far while on a trip?

You then cannot start it - do you need to travel with a super smart charger?

Or do you end your trip and trailer the bike back?

For now I'll just stick to old school batteries and replace them every couple of years vs buying these "new school" batteries
 

Offline Beebop

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2019, 03:41:37 pm »

For now I'll just stick to old school batteries and replace them every couple of years vs buying these "new school" batteries
I agree, but eventually technology will phase out the AGM and Lead-acid stuff and then you have no choice.
I wonder if these LiFePO4 battery booster packs will have the same effect if used to "jump start" one ?
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2019, 03:48:06 pm »
What happens if you depleted the battery to far while on a trip?

That is one of the disadvantages of Lithium.
But ask yourself when last have you depleted the battery on a vehicle.
It happens:
- On old vehicles such as leaving the lights on etc.
- When something is wrong with the vehicle and it struggles to start
- When the battery is at the end of it's life.

Thus don't install a lithium battery in old shit.

The lithium is less effort since you don't need to keep it on a trickle charger when not using the bike.
Happened to me twice that a lead acid battery failed during a trip.

So what do you do? You buy a new battery along the way or buy a small 12V alarm battery and run start the bike every time.
 

Offline Bullet

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2019, 04:06:57 pm »

For now I'll just stick to old school batteries and replace them every couple of years vs buying these "new school" batteries
I agree, but eventually technology will phase out the AGM and Lead-acid stuff and then you have no choice.
I wonder if these LiFePO4 battery booster packs will have the same effect if used to "jump start" one ?
The jump start itself is not the problem. The problem is that when the bike/car starts it immediately charges at full current at about 14v. If the battery had dropped into the "sick"mode - below 8v, you will kill the battery. it needs to be nursed back into life with a charger. Some of the really expensive batteries have this electronics built in. The cheaper LiFe batteries don't.

Anyway that only happens if you leave your lights on overnight or something. Virtually impossible if you don't add aftermarket accessories that by pass bike's electronics.

I have made sure that my running lights (the ones that switch off automatically on my 1190 and my 500 if the engine is not running) control a relay that switches power from the batteries to all my accessories. That way I can't leave anything powered if the engine isn't charging the battery.

ANYWAY -THE BIGGEST ADVANTAGE IS THE LIFESPAN AND CRANKING CAPACITY FOR WEIGHT - If you look after the LiFePO batteries they will last for more than 10 years and crank far stronger than a lead acid. I put a Shorai LiFe (3.5kg lighter than OEM battery) in my 2010 990 and it's still going strong despite one or two "recovery charges". This is why they use them now on the 500s and 690's (no kick-starter) where you need cranking reliability. I now have them in my 1190, 500 and 250. If you park the bike with a full battery, you will still have a full battery many months later.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 04:10:06 pm by Bullet »
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Offline Rudes

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2019, 04:19:54 pm »
Ok , so now where do you , or from whom do you purchase Li batteries?   in Cape Town that is...
 

Offline Bullet

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2019, 04:43:27 pm »
Ok , so now where do you , or from whom do you purchase Li batteries?   in Cape Town that is...
I bought a motobat lithium battery for my wife's 1050 from tracmac

Justbiketyre Centurion also sell them. Try the Cape town branch.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 04:46:45 pm by Bullet »
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Offline Bill the Bong

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2019, 09:18:31 pm »
Lots of words being written. Not many chargers are as dumb as a KTM 300 charging circuit. Most dumb chargers can manage 14V, a KTM 300 between 12.6 and 13.6V. Either will charge a LiFePo successfully enough. I’ve had a lithium down to 6V, 5 minutes on a 30 year old charger that pushes 1 amp on a good day and it has recovered enough to start a 250 2 stroke. You guys are seriously over thinking this.
 

Offline Bundu

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Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2019, 09:41:23 pm »
You can use any old dumb charger.

^this

the Li batteries are designed to be charged in a vehicle - no fancy 'desulphation' or reviving crap where the charger pushes the voltage up above 15V

the cheaper the charger (within limits) for a Li, the better
 

Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2019, 10:55:55 pm »
You can use any old dumb charger.

^this

the Li batteries are designed to be charged in a vehicle - no fancy 'desulphation' or reviving crap where the charger pushes the voltage up above 15V

the cheaper the charger (within limits) for a Li, the better

+1
 

Offline Supervan

Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2019, 11:48:48 am »
So I needed a new battery for scoot. Move with the times and buy Lithium at a premium cost.
Only to find out my C-Tech charger cannot be used on it?
The Lithium instructions say under charging "charge the lithium battery with a conventional lead acid battery 12v charger ( without function of automatic desulfation or pulse charging function"?
The C-tech charger uses automatic desulfation?
What now?

Ride more regularly  :ricky:
Freedom is directly proportional to risk.
 

Offline masehare

Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2019, 08:34:51 pm »
You can use any old dumb charger.

^this

the Li batteries are designed to be charged in a vehicle - no fancy 'desulphation' or reviving crap where the charger pushes the voltage up above 15V

the cheaper the charger (within limits) for a Li, the better

Traditional LiFe batteries cannot be reliably charged with a normal charger, hence the charging circuit built into the LiFe bike batteries (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=page&id=18&chapter=1). This will permit a bike to charge a LiFe battery with a circuit designed for a lead battery. And then obviously with a traditional charger you guys mention as well.

It'll be interesting to see comments of guys here who had these batteries long term.
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Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2019, 08:48:33 pm »
Traditional LiFe batteries cannot be reliably charged with a normal charger, hence the charging circuit built into the LiFe bike batteries (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=page&id=18&chapter=1). This will permit a bike to charge a LiFe battery with a circuit designed for a lead battery. And then obviously with a traditional charger you guys mention as well.

What charging circuit are you talking about? 
All I know off is the BMS (battery management system) that is included in some batteries and all that does is balance the voltage between cells inside the battery.

Do they now have something more advanced in the batteries?
 

Offline masehare

Re: Lithium-ion battery
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2019, 07:51:50 pm »
Traditional LiFe batteries cannot be reliably charged with a normal charger, hence the charging circuit built into the LiFe bike batteries (http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=page&id=18&chapter=1). This will permit a bike to charge a LiFe battery with a circuit designed for a lead battery. And then obviously with a traditional charger you guys mention as well.

What charging circuit are you talking about? 
All I know off is the BMS (battery management system) that is included in some batteries and all that does is balance the voltage between cells inside the battery.

Do they now have something more advanced in the batteries?

Sorry, my bad, I misread that. I've got quite a bit of experience with RC batteries and the cell balancing is quite important. It'll be a bit strange for me if they don't have some type of circuit to regulate the charge rate in the charging cycle. And some kind of way to stop charging when the battery is full. These batteries don't take well to overcharging.
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