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Author Topic: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS  (Read 2048 times)

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Offline sgt

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2019, 01:43:14 pm »
I would love to attempt the Tankwa XC on a big bike.

Ek dare jou.....

I can understand a GS because I ride one and always amazed how they tackle low speed technical riding.  I am not sure about the Africa Twin - is it not very top heavy?  How is the handling?   It would be cool to see it tackle something like this though, but I suspect it would be easier on a Rallye GS with sport suspension.
 

Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2019, 02:08:46 pm »
I would love to attempt the Tankwa XC on a big bike.

Ek dare jou.....

I can understand a GS because I ride one and always amazed how they tackle low speed technical riding.  I am not sure about the Africa Twin - is it not very top heavy?  How is the handling?   It would be cool to see it tackle something like this though, but I suspect it would be easier on a Rallye GS with sport suspension.

This is an important point, I actually wanted to ask detour on it but didn't want to start the whole brand bashing thing.

the GS is better with slow technical while the bigger KTMs will shine better with fast technical, opinions which would be the best suited? Or is it 50 50 terrain in the end?
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Offline detour

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2019, 02:34:00 pm »
If this could be marketed a little more towards those GS challenges, the Trophy guys, I believe it would benefit the rally's a lot. I understand there was 19 racers, 2 in the big bore class. That does not sound sustainable to me. There is a lot of guys at the Trophy on detour's level willing to hand out some punishment to their GS's, if these could be pulled in, if the Tankwa rally could be made 'cool' to this market, it will be a huge benefit to the sport. I understand 'cool' is an ugly word here, but still.

Looking at the results, there were 17 racers of which two were in the big bore class.

In my opinion there is a very small market for big adventure bikes doing the rally class route.  Some of the obstacles are seriously advanced on big adventure bikes with significant risk to the bikes - that climb up and descent down the mountain on Day 2, the sections of riverbed with large rocks on Day 2 and Day 3, that ditch on Day 3.  That being said, I believe one can use 80% of the rally class route and by avoiding these more severe obstacles there may well be a significant market for big adventure bikes.  Kind of like enduro where there are sometimes 'green' loops to avoid the most technical 'red' sections.  Different clippers on the different routes...

The group of riders who were more obviously missing from the rally, are the 690/701 riders....  those bikes are more than capable of doing the rally class route.
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Offline detour

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2019, 02:52:08 pm »
I can understand a GS because I ride one and always amazed how they tackle low speed technical riding.  I am not sure about the Africa Twin - is it not very top heavy?  How is the handling?   It would be cool to see it tackle something like this though, but I suspect it would be easier on a Rallye GS with sport suspension.

This is an important point, I actually wanted to ask detour on it but didn't want to start the whole brand bashing thing.

the GS is better with slow technical while the bigger KTMs will shine better with fast technical, opinions which would be the best suited? Or is it 50 50 terrain in the end?

This is indeed a risky point to discuss  ;D

To be honest... I am struggling to think of parts of the route where the GS is more suitable than a bike with 18/21 and traditional forks.  I didn't keep track of how many times I nearly lost the front, but it was A LOT.  The telelever works well on tar and good gravel roads, but let's face it... it is not great going over ruts, ditches and rocks.  There is no shortage of those in Tankwa.

If this was just an adventure ride at a modest pace, then one might well be able to leverage the GS' low center of gravity and low rpm torque in 'slow' sections to one's advantage.  But there is no doubt in my mind which bike would win if you were to race a GS and a 1290R over this terrain.  It won't even be close.
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Offline Buff

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2019, 02:56:53 pm »
I think a good reference point for racing the Tankwa on a big bike would be the Old Postal route. If you can take your litre bike over there at a decent pace and not be entirely out of your comfort zone then you will probably survive the Tankwa. What's your thought on that @detour ?
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Offline sgt

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2019, 03:04:02 pm »
If this was just an adventure ride at a modest pace, then one might well be able to leverage the GS' low center of gravity and low rpm torque in 'slow' sections to one's advantage.  But there is no doubt in my mind which bike would win if you were to race a GS and a 1290R over this terrain.  It won't even be close.

So should I sell my 1200GS and buy a KTM 1290 Adventure R ?    :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
 

Offline Fuzzy Muzzy

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2019, 03:08:14 pm »
This XC Rally is in its 4th year and has been marketed extensively on social media. There comes a time when people just need to get off their backsides and enter instead of sitting on the sideline being spoon fed off the stories of those who have done it... sorry, just MHO. I also believe what detour did is pretty spectacular and I personally don't think there's too many others with the fitness and skill set to match him. Locally I know of about 5, the likes of BJ Vosloo and Byron etc. Lets hope a few more come next year and prove me wrong  ;D

I am one of the guilty ones on my backside. I don't know how you guys make the family logistics work but in the end its all a case of how badly you want it and making the priorities line up. Currently I have no rally experience, no racing experience and will have no one I know there, I will also be going alone, and not be falling in with a previous team or anything, that's my reality. If there is 10 or 30 litre class bikes also doing something like this it will be a lot easier for someone like me to just fall in.

I know its been marketed extensively, but having the likes of the two names mentioned join in will be worth a whole marketing campaign in itself.

I read your comment with interest and I don't want to hijack the thread too much , but seeing as it was raised.

I was the media officer for Tankwa and was involved with the social media side etc. The event was marketed quite late compared to some other events mainly because of how many races were in the year from WCOC. It is a growing event and we didn't want it to go from 30 or 40 riders to 150. The area is very heavily under drought and we were also sensitive to the impact of the event. This year was the 1st year introducing the live satelite tracking etc.. so this was really just the next step from last year. This is the 4th year I have been involved and every year there is something done a bit better than last year.

Because of injuries there were some Dakar participants and National trophy winners who could not take part, but, big names draw big names .. people are complex though. If you have a Dakar entry competing then the weekend worriors dont want to come because they doubt their abilities, if the Dakar entries don't come then people want to know if the event is even worth attending, so its always trying to find that middle ground which attracts new riders with little rally or navigational experience. My focus has always been on the development of riders who can ride a bike, they just need the confidence to compete in a rally.

This will continue to develop next year with a Junior Tankwa, roadbook training weekends and a qualifying round before next years event which will attract riders who always wanted to ride a rally but are not quite sure what to expect. It will also give them an opportunity to learn how to plan for these events, what is expected and how to give yourself the best chance of finishing.

Preppng for , and doing a rally takes a lot, family and work have to be juggled, you have to prep the body and mind and bike for the event, its not cheap and its far away.. you have to get all of those in alignment to get a rider onto the line, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. Even myself, i planned as best I could but in the end my bike just wasn't ready and there were a few guys who just didn't get their prep work done..

As for going alone.. don't let that stop you, Just like there was a Honda team and a Droomers team there is no reason why people cant put together an independent team.. a group of riding buddies who ride together from time to time can, with effort , make up a 3 or 4 man team and work together to do the event, you are always welcome to come camp with me, I am more than happy to help you prep and if you want any training rides in the year when you have time, just give me a shout and ill happily do a few training rides with you.


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Offline detour

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2019, 03:13:17 pm »
If this was just an adventure ride at a modest pace, then one might well be able to leverage the GS' low center of gravity and low rpm torque in 'slow' sections to one's advantage.  But there is no doubt in my mind which bike would win if you were to race a GS and a 1290R over this terrain.  It won't even be close.

So should I sell my 1200GS and buy a KTM 1290 Adventure R ?    :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

If your primary objective is to be the fastest big adventure bike in Tankwa... then yes  :biggrin:  The reality is that there are many other, more important factors to consider when picking a large adventure bike.  There is no 'one size fits all'
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Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2019, 03:37:25 pm »
very interesting the comment of losing the front, second time now that comment is made, I did think it odd the first time... is that because the telelever is stiffer or just a different type of rebound? How does that work? I know a bigger diameter wheel will get over ruts and obstacles better, but this refers to something different?


I was actually thinking of this old review which I found to be a good summary.
https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjm5I2Ik_vkAhXGQhUIHSalCv4QFjACegQIDBAH&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.advpulse.com%2Fadv-bikes%2Fktm-1290-super-adventure-vs-bmw-r1200gs-adventure%2F&usg=AOvVaw2JOARa-Unz9N3qqkhZsH7Y
basically driven aggressively the KTM shines, slow technical the GS shines, competent rider riding aggressively the KTM will only edge the GS, which I thought was a positive to the GS. (this was on the non R KTM with smaller wheels)
I never thought of the wheel sizes actually.
Some of the old GS trophy guys are of the opinion the new suspensions on the GS is very good, better than the 1290 R. so I know loyalties and whatnot, so in my mind I gave it a pretty much equal. seems like there is a lot more to it.

Interesting stuff.
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Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2019, 03:38:37 pm »
Thanks Fuzzy Muzzy
I think I will still take you up on some of those offers!
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Offline sgt

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2019, 04:00:35 pm »
If this was just an adventure ride at a modest pace, then one might well be able to leverage the GS' low center of gravity and low rpm torque in 'slow' sections to one's advantage.  But there is no doubt in my mind which bike would win if you were to race a GS and a 1290R over this terrain.  It won't even be close.

So should I sell my 1200GS and buy a KTM 1290 Adventure R ?    :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

If your primary objective is to be the fastest big adventure bike in Tankwa... then yes  :biggrin:  The reality is that there are many other, more important factors to consider when picking a large adventure bike.  There is no 'one size fits all'

I guess not really.  Going fast means you can also fall very fast. Sticking to R1200GS for now  :)
 

Offline KarooKid

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2019, 04:02:44 pm »
I would love to attempt the Tankwa XC on a big bike.

Ek dare jou.....

I can understand a GS because I ride one and always amazed how they tackle low speed technical riding.  I am not sure about the Africa Twin - is it not very top heavy?  How is the handling?   It would be cool to see it tackle something like this though, but I suspect it would be easier on a Rallye GS with sport suspension.

I am pretty sure the AT will be just fine.

I have done some Mountain bike trails and a Quest or two on them and they are more than capable.

The real test will be the riderí Capabilities I think.

Whether it is worth damaging a big bike is a whole other story.
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Offline KarooKid

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2019, 04:12:11 pm »
If this could be marketed a little more towards those GS challenges, the Trophy guys, I believe it would benefit the rally's a lot. I understand there was 19 racers, 2 in the big bore class. That does not sound sustainable to me. There is a lot of guys at the Trophy on detour's level willing to hand out some punishment to their GS's, if these could be pulled in, if the Tankwa rally could be made 'cool' to this market, it will be a huge benefit to the sport. I understand 'cool' is an ugly word here, but still.

Looking at the results, there were 17 racers of which two were in the big bore class.

In my opinion there is a very small market for big adventure bikes doing the rally class route.  Some of the obstacles are seriously advanced on big adventure bikes with significant risk to the bikes - that climb up and descent down the mountain on Day 2, the sections of riverbed with large rocks on Day 2 and Day 3, that ditch on Day 3.  That being said, I believe one can use 80% of the rally class route and by avoiding these more severe obstacles there may well be a significant market for big adventure bikes.  Kind of like enduro where there are sometimes 'green' loops to avoid the most technical 'red' sections.  Different clippers on the different routes...

The group of riders who were more obviously missing from the rally, are the 690/701 riders....  those bikes are more than capable of doing the rally class route.

Absolutely agree. Robert Gibbon proved this on that magnificent 690 of his
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Offline sgt

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2019, 04:19:21 pm »
I am pretty sure the AT will be just fine.

I have done some Mountain bike trails and a Quest or two on them and they are more than capable.

The real test will be the riderí Capabilities I think.

Whether it is worth damaging a big bike is a whole other story.

I haven't ridden the AT but I have to admit it's a stunning looking bike, especially the new 2020 CRF1100L Adventure Sports.     :drif:
 

Online Noneking

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2019, 04:22:45 pm »
Iíve always been a big GS fan, owned several and loved taking them off the beaten track.... BUT if technical offroad riding is your thing, the big KTMs are just in a different class. That doesnít mean the GS canít hold itís own, maybe just a bit harder work getting it over the same obstacles

Wish I could afford having one of each, the new 1250 is really something special!
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Offline detour

Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2019, 04:52:07 pm »
very interesting the comment of losing the front, second time now that comment is made, I did think it odd the first time... is that because the telelever is stiffer or just a different type of rebound? How does that work? I know a bigger diameter wheel will get over ruts and obstacles better, but this refers to something different?


I was actually thinking of this old review which I found to be a good summary.
https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjm5I2Ik_vkAhXGQhUIHSalCv4QFjACegQIDBAH&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.advpulse.com%2Fadv-bikes%2Fktm-1290-super-adventure-vs-bmw-r1200gs-adventure%2F&usg=AOvVaw2JOARa-Unz9N3qqkhZsH7Y
basically driven aggressively the KTM shines, slow technical the GS shines, competent rider riding aggressively the KTM will only edge the GS, which I thought was a positive to the GS. (this was on the non R KTM with smaller wheels)
I never thought of the wheel sizes actually.
Some of the old GS trophy guys are of the opinion the new suspensions on the GS is very good, better than the 1290 R. so I know loyalties and whatnot, so in my mind I gave it a pretty much equal. seems like there is a lot more to it.

Interesting stuff.

Two things regarding 'losing the front'... Firstly, I find the telelever to be rather 'stiff'/hard.  As a result the front tends to veer of to the side as soon as you go over any sizeable rock that is semi-loose.  This is a problem with limited suspension travel on other big adventure bikes too, but to me it feels like the telelever system is significantly more prone to it.  From a mechanics point of view I'm not sure why this is.  Perhaps there is a mechanical engineer that wants to explain this to us  :)  Secondly, I get better feedback - when I ride off-road - from a traditional front suspension than from the telelever system.  That leads to less surprises / close calls.  Some of this might be subjective.... but for me I can definitely go faster on rocky terrain with telescopic forks vs telelever.  Same applies for me going through corners with bad corrugation.  Try doing a small step-up with a telelever vs a telescopic fork... the margin for error with the telelever is smaller.

The LC generation has definitely improved on the feedback that one gets from the telelever system and also on how the front wheel reacts when you start losing traction.  I believe the 1250 has further improved on that, but I have very limited experience riding that bike.

I'm not sure one should compare the non-R KTM to the GSA or the GS with sport suspension.  The non-R KTM should be compared to the standard GS with standard suspension.  Personally I won't be tempted to ride the non-R KTM  ;D

Regarding the LC suspension (sport) vs the 1290R... I rode them back-to-back in Kaokoland over harsh terrain.  Both can do the job, but I found the 1290R to be more forgiving.  I won't bet money on a good GS rider running a good 1290R rider close over a 10 hour special in Tankwa...  Like I've mentioned earlier, there are other reasons why I prefer to own the GS at the moment.

On this topic of suspension.   To me it feels like KTM has made a significant improvement to the handling of the 1290R over the 1190R.  An 1190R with stock suspension can be a handful.  I find a GS to be easier to ride in sand than an 1190R, but the 1290R beats them both.

These things are subjective... so not everyone will agree  ;D
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Offline m0lt3n

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2019, 05:09:24 pm »
You do some great reviews there detour. Thanks.
I have progressive springs fitted and revalve on my 1190, any idea how that compares to 1290 (big question for me... Don't know if it's worth it to upgrade then all things concidering)

And you need to go take a 790 through Tankwa, would love your opinion on that!
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Offline Heimer

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2019, 05:34:23 pm »
I am in awe.


You achieved something very few can.

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2019, 07:51:15 pm »
I would love to attempt the Tankwa XC on a big bike.

I'd personally rather ride a CRF250 Rally on the Tankwa than anything that weighs more than say 170kg.  I have a F800GS and that thing will not get close to the Tankwa if I can help it.
 

Offline Mayhem

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Re: Tankwa Cross Country Rally on a 1200 GS
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2019, 09:22:42 pm »
That was a massive undertaking on a GS, congrats on getting the job done  :thumleft: How did the bike hold up to the abuse?

How many rally competitors have finished a stage (on a Hippo) with a pillion... :3some:
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