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Offline Rouxman

Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #80 on: January 20, 2020, 09:25:25 pm »
What is actually still wrong with this code 3 bike according to Donfords despite it being a code 3?

To the untrained eye the bike looks good, not so? Not that obvious bad code 3 re-build to the untrained eye is it?

What repairs are so expensive that is almost half the value of the bike?

Who repaired the bike in the first place before it was sold to Oomie or whoever after it was written off, and if it was BMW then surely they would have replaced  everything that needed to be replaced with new parts and guaranteed their work?

Is Donfords not just asking crazy prices and exaggerating the "Problem" or "Damage" to the bike knowing it is a code 3 now and that BMW spares are not cheap in any event?

If the NATIS papers had not stated the code 3 were the problems that exist now really obviously detectable or did the code 3 red flag it and spoil it?(I do agree you paid for a proper used non-code 3 bike and I too would have expected that but I am interested in the real condition of the bike despite it being code3?

I am not in any form, way or shape defending or condoning this assholes behaviour in selling a code 3 but what I would like to know is  if it is not salvageable and is it really physically in such a dire condition?

In other words if you can't get your money back is it the end of the road for this bike?

Maybe post the list of what is wrong or right on this bike according to Donfords for interest sake.

Sorry about the bad luck, it sickens me too.

Pertaining to the mere fact that the bike is a Code 3:

For R80k obviously not worth it.
My insurer wont insure for more than R40k. @dual were able to get an insurer who were willing to insure for R51075.00.

So one immediately have a 100% risk on R28025.00 given the higher insurance value.

In terms of the repairs:

I have no idea who the repairs was done by. On this I have zero information.

The bike needs to go for a proper inspection at Motorrad but at this stage I’m not spending a penny on it. They charge R1k for this service.
From there one could make an assessment and decide if it’s worth doing by either outsourcing repairs or diy.

Remember I’m still R80k into this bike.

Had it not been a Code 3, I’m sure the first service visit to Motorrad would’ve highlighted some issues like the rear wheel play, defective tyre pressure sensor(s?).

It is salvageable depending on ones mechanical ability and cost of parts.

I know on my 1150 two FD pivot bearing (available only from motorrad) is R2400 for the pair + swing arm pivot bearings =R5k

On this bike the rear wheel has movement between 12/6 & 3/9. Could be just tightening of swingarm and FD pivot bearings, could also be FD.....

@Dual can elaborate more as he actually had the bike at Donfords.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 09:40:40 pm by Rouxman »
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Online dual

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #81 on: January 20, 2020, 10:08:36 pm »
Donford had a look at the bike
Play on rear wheel, horizontal and vertical
Telelever rubber perished
Front beak bent to the right
Left shock rubbing against oil cooler pipe
Left heated grip not heating
Front pressure sensor not working, battery
Service light on
From only this they roughly quoted about R 25 000.00, this was enough for me to halt there and walk away
 

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2020, 04:54:43 am »
Donford had a look at the bike
Play on rear wheel, horizontal and vertical
Telelever rubber perished
Front beak bent to the right
Left shock rubbing against oil cooler pipe
Left heated grip not heating
Front pressure sensor not working, battery
Service light on
From only this they roughly quoted about R 25 000.00, this was enough for me to halt there and walk away

 :eek7:  So Rouxman is currently looking at a R105 000, 2008 code 3 bike that can only be insured for R40 000.   Then you still don't know what crap will creep out at a later stage.  Mooi man, en daai ou noem jou 'n vriend.  Fok, ek wil nie weet hoe behandel hy sy vyande nie.   :eek7: :lol8: 
No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everybody on the the couch
Honda XL125  -  Sold,    Honda XR200R  -  Sold,     Yamaha TT500  -  Sold,     Honda Transalp700  -  Sold,       Yamaha S10 Fast Blue  -  Sold,   Yamaha S10 Slow White  -  Sold,   Honda CRF250 Rally - To be Sold, XR650L..
 

Offline TheBear

Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2020, 08:12:26 am »
Always wondered how the insurance determines when a vehicle is code3 and what's not as I've seen plenty of frame damaged bikes with forks ripped off that are still code2 on SMD and others with minor damage (from the pics) listed as code3.

Unless it was stolen and recovered then I think it's listed as code3 by default as the owner usually has to deregister it with the traffic dept and it may or may not have a new VIN stamped if it had been tampered with.

My understanding is that the insurance does not determine whether it is a Code 3, but rather E-Natis.  We seem to confuse ourselves by using the term, "the vehicle was written off".  There are actually two different actions here.  The first is that the insurance declares the vehicle uneconomical to repair.  It is then de-registered on E-Natis, or in some cases it is not.  If de-registered, and then re-registered it will come back as a Code 3.  If it was never de-registered, it will stay a Code 2.

The above is my understanding due to my own bike, a 2015 BMW R1200GS going through the process recently.  The insurance declared it uneconomical to repair.  It seems, there were now three options as far as I could figure. 

- The insurance and I decide that I keep the bike and they pay out a percentage of the insured value.  I repair the bike myself.  It will remain a Code 2 as there was no de-registration, or re-registration on E-Natis.
- The insurance pays me in full and take the bike.  They do the de-registration as ownership moved to them.  The bike goes to a salvage company to be sold as parts, or a whole, or after being rebuild.  It will come back as a Code 3.
- Then there is the illegal option, where the insurance do not de-register the vehicle.  The bike is then rebuild and sold as a Code 2.  For this to happen a few people needs to be in cahoots.  (Note:  This is not what happened to my bike)

Was doing some googling earlier and found this: https://www.insurancegateway.co.za/download/4725

May be different for vehicles with no finance and it would be in the best interest of the insurers to leave the status as code2 fora higher resale value I would assume?

Quote
DEFINITIONS
The following terminology and NaTis Codes will be used in all correspondence between insurers
and finance houses.
3.1 NaTis Codes
The four life cycle status codes for a motor vehicle on NaTis are;
a.) Code 1 - New
New vehicles delivered by a dealer to the first owner.
b.) Code 2 – Second Hand
Used vehicles with one or more previous owners.
c.) Code 3 - Permanently Unfit For Use
Code 3 vehicles are Code 1 or 2 vehicles involved in an incident, and subsequently being
declared unfit for use as a motor vehicle, such motor vehicle may be rebuilt however will
forever reflect a code 3 allocation and undergo the stringent procedures set out in the
legislation. A vehicle is “Permanently unfit for Use”, when the extent of the damage
includes structural defects that require substantial rebuilding.

d.) Code 4 - Permanently Demolished
Permanently demolished, means that the chassis of a motor vehicle has been
a.)Compacted; b) compressed; c) melted; d) destroyed d; or e) damage to such an extent
that the motor vehicle concerned cannot be made roadworthy and the chassis cannot be
used to build a motor vehicle”.
3.2 Uneconomical to Repair
A vehicle is “uneconomical to repair” when, cost of parts, the availability of parts, the repair
duration and vehicle rental costs are high. The status of the vehicle will not be altered.
Therefore in the insurer’s discretionary opinion the vehicle is uneconomical to repair, but
structurally sound.

3.3 Dealer Stock
Where vehicles are declared uneconomical to repair, vehicles are registered in the name of
the insurance company as the titleholder of the vehicle.
4. PROCESSES THAT WILL BE FOLLOWED
4.1 Responsibility of the Insurance Company
 Insurers undertake to exercise sound judgement and to take extreme care in making
decisions relating to the repair and status of accident-damaged vehicles.
 Insurers and their appointed assessors will make this decision and instruct Finance Houses
accordingly.
4.1.1 Damaged Vehicles
An insured vehicle, involved in an accident, is always assessed by an Insurer appointed specialist
(the motor vehicle engineer or motor assessor) to determine the extent of the damage.
Depending on the extent of the damage, the vehicle will either be repaired, declared
uneconomical to repair or unfit for use as a motor vehicle.
Based on the information provided by the specialist report, the insurer will determine whether the
vehicle should be permanently demolished, is permanently unfit for use or is declared
uneconomical to repair.
Permanently Demolished - If a vehicle is declared “permanently demolished” (Code 4), the
vehicle will be demolished. The insurer will request the Finance House to change the status of
the vehicle on the NaTis system to a Code 4 on settlement and to deregister the vehicle.
Permanently Unfit For Use - If a vehicle is “declared permanently unfit for use” (Code 3), the
vehicle will be written off. The insurer will request the Finance House to change the status of the
vehicle on the NaTis system to a Code 3 on settlement.
Declared Uneconomical To Repair - If a vehicle is “declared uneconomical to repair”, the status
of the vehicle will be or remain that of a Code 2 vehicle. The Insurer warrants that these vehicles
are structurally sound and have the capability of being repaired. The vehicle will be Dealer
stocked into the name of the insurer as the titleholder of the vehicle before selling it as salvage

I think the issue comes with the definition of "permanently unfit for use as a motor vehicle".  As with many things, the regs are clear, but with loopholes.
#33 #BRADICAL!
 

Offline TheBear

Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2020, 08:14:28 am »
Donford had a look at the bike
Play on rear wheel, horizontal and vertical
Telelever rubber perished
Front beak bent to the right
Left shock rubbing against oil cooler pipe
Left heated grip not heating
Front pressure sensor not working, battery
Service light on
From only this they roughly quoted about R 25 000.00, this was enough for me to halt there and walk away

With this list, walking away is the only option, even if a Code 2.
#33 #BRADICAL!
 

Offline Kuifie

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2020, 10:20:04 am »
Donford had a look at the bike
Play on rear wheel, horizontal and vertical
Telelever rubber perished
Front beak bent to the right
Left shock rubbing against oil cooler pipe
Left heated grip not heating
Front pressure sensor not working, battery
Service light on
From only this they roughly quoted about R 25 000.00, this was enough for me to halt there and walk away

With this list, walking away is the only option, even if a Code 2.

Sou GS Traders nie bike uitgecheck het en bevestig het alles is mooi nie. Ek is bly om net goeie goed van GS traders te lees hier want ek het weer ander stories gehoor wat dalk net stories is.......... Ek trust niemand. Sal maar altyd by  dealer probeer koop.
"If the left side of your brain control the right side of your body, only left handed people are in the right mind"
 

Offline TeeJay

Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2020, 12:40:01 pm »
@Rouxman


Any update?
Ja/Nee
 

Offline Rouxman

Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2020, 01:22:57 pm »
@Rouxman


Any update?

There have been some developments.

I cannot reveal this now but as the story unfolds I will share what I can.

I’m just hanging back on current developments as it may influence the outcome.

What I can say is that as I’m learning more I’m becoming less and less compassionate towards Shaun.

He knows exactly what he’s doing.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 01:23:30 pm by Rouxman »
Actions express priorities - Gandhi
 
The following users thanked this post: Maverick, TeeJay

Offline TeeJay

Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2020, 03:58:35 pm »
@Rouxman


Any update?

There have been some developments.

I cannot reveal this now but as the story unfolds I will share what I can.

I’m just hanging back on current developments as it may influence the outcome.

What I can say is that as I’m learning more I’m becoming less and less compassionate towards Shaun.

He knows exactly what he’s doing.

Thanks - yep that's usually the case with conmen - they know what they're doing. Hoping for a good outcome.
Ja/Nee
 

Offline Manic

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2020, 04:07:31 pm »
keep us posted  :thumleft:
 

Offline Kuifie

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #90 on: January 21, 2020, 04:24:21 pm »
keep us posted  :thumleft:

Sorry man met hierdie thread het ek besluit ek koop nie meer bikes by pelle nie
"If the left side of your brain control the right side of your body, only left handed people are in the right mind"
 

Offline Manic

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #91 on: January 21, 2020, 04:30:12 pm »
keep us posted  :thumleft:

Sorry man met hierdie thread het ek besluit ek koop nie meer bikes by pelle nie

Ek het weer besluit ek koop nie n fok n bike in die Kaap nie  :imaposer:
 

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #92 on: January 21, 2020, 04:33:27 pm »
keep us posted  :thumleft:

Sorry man met hierdie thread het ek besluit ek koop nie meer bikes by pelle nie

Ek het weer besluit ek koop nie n fok n bike in die Kaap nie  :imaposer:

En ek is heeltyd bang julle dink ek is die ou van George waarna daar heeltyd verwys word.  :lol8:
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Offline eberhard

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #93 on: January 21, 2020, 04:59:21 pm »
Sorry man met hierdie thread het ek besluit ek koop nie meer bikes by pelle nie

Kom aan, wat is 'n R105 000 nou tussen pêlle?  :peepwall:
eberhard
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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2020, 08:13:30 pm »
Sorry man met hierdie thread het ek besluit ek koop nie meer bikes by pelle nie

Kom aan, wat is 'n R105 000 nou tussen pêlle?  :peepwall:

Skerp jy.   :biggrin: :thumleft:
No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everybody on the the couch
Honda XL125  -  Sold,    Honda XR200R  -  Sold,     Yamaha TT500  -  Sold,     Honda Transalp700  -  Sold,       Yamaha S10 Fast Blue  -  Sold,   Yamaha S10 Slow White  -  Sold,   Honda CRF250 Rally - To be Sold, XR650L..
 

Offline Mapog

Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #95 on: January 21, 2020, 09:10:32 pm »
Met rygoed ry ek maar eerder n voertuig langer, maar probeer dan nuut koop.

Ek is gemaklik om my bakkies te ry tot 500 k km, want ek weet wat ek het.

As ek 2de hands koop, dan moet dit n groot besparing bring.
 

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2020, 09:24:32 pm »
keep us posted  :thumleft:

Sorry man met hierdie thread het ek besluit ek koop nie meer bikes by pelle nie

Ek het weer besluit ek koop nie n fok n bike in die Kaap nie  :imaposer:

Dis net met BMW's waar jy so baie dodgy karakters kry.
 

Offline Rynet

Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2020, 08:30:48 am »
Hi Rouxman. I have sympathy for you, but what is your intent with sharing the story " Far and Wide " as you said in one of your Facebook posts which you posted on various bike groups?

Is your intent to say to people: Look, I did not have a R80,000 motorbike checked out or the NATIS checked when I bought it or even before I registered it . Please learn from my mistake.  Please do your checks and balances before you buy.
Or is your intention to warn people against Shaun Dickens. That they must not buy from him and that he must close his bike shop ?
Do you think Shaun does this will all his bikes ? Surely not ? And , I am sure are a lot of Code 3 bikes out there that have been fixed up well and the owners are happily riding same.

Your situation is terrible , having trusted someone to do something that you should have checked but there is a solution but you are not giving it to him.

I don't know this Shaun Dickens at all. But on Facebook he answered you and said the following : "Shaun Dickens Hi Fanus all of this above is completely true and yes I will refund you and that is why I asked you to pls bring the bike to me so I could put it on the floor and sell it and yes I will sell it for less than what you paid. Like I told you I have a couple of buyers lined up and I will stand for this mistake I made and you know I received the natis after you took delivery of the bike. I honestly did not know it was a code 3 the previous owner told me when I asked him about it that he did not know and never even looked at it. I started my own bike shop 5 months ago and business is slow so I dont have all the money to pay you and that is why I asked you to pls bring the bike to the floor so I could sell it .
So Fanus I do apologize and am trying my best to resolve this as quickly as possible
"

I also see on Facebook that he has a wife and two small daughters.  Running his own new small business especially in the current economical climate and over Christmas season when no one has money, what if he does need the bike to sell to be able to start paying you back. Bikes Sales are awful at the moment. No one has money for luxuries.

I admire your morals and ethics, but can you really control what Shaun does with the bike. You say that you don't want to pay R1,000 to get a detailed break-down as to what is wrong with the bike. But I would have thought that is where one should start.  To see what exactly is wrong and how much it would cost to fix. Once he has the list of damages he can get it fixed where he works or with one of his colleagues. What he sells it for the next person is between him and the next person, but at least he can then start paying you back. Or have the bike sitting at another bike shop. I don't think Buyers are going to come to your house. Shaun knows that you will put the Buyers off. Sitting at your house you are forcing a solution that may not be possible and could be a statement unless you have a solution which I really hope you do for all concerned.  :thumleft: :thumleft:

EDIT: I meant " stalemate" not statement.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 09:04:09 am by Rynet »
 

Offline Grunder

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Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2020, 09:01:58 am »
Hi Rouxman. I have sympathy for you, but what is your intent with sharing the story " Far and Wide " as you said in one of your Facebook posts which you posted on various bike groups?

Is your intent to say to people: Look, I did not have a R80,000 motorbike checked out or the NATIS checked when I bought it or even before I registered it . Please learn from my mistake.  Please do your checks and balances before you buy.
Or is your intention to warn people against Shaun Dickens. That they must not buy from him and that he must close his bike shop ?
Do you think Shaun does this will all his bikes ? Surely not ? And , I am sure are a lot of Code 3 bikes out there that have been fixed up well and the owners are happily riding same.

Your situation is terrible , having trusted someone to do something that you should have checked but there is a solution but you are not giving it to him.

I don't know this Shaun Dickens at all. But on Facebook he answered you and said the following : "Shaun Dickens Hi Fanus all of this above is completely true and yes I will refund you and that is why I asked you to pls bring the bike to me so I could put it on the floor and sell it and yes I will sell it for less than what you paid. Like I told you I have a couple of buyers lined up and I will stand for this mistake I made and you know I received the natis after you took delivery of the bike. I honestly did not know it was a code 3 the previous owner told me when I asked him about it that he did not know and never even looked at it. I started my own bike shop 5 months ago and business is slow so I dont have all the money to pay you and that is why I asked you to pls bring the bike to the floor so I could sell it .
So Fanus I do apologize and am trying my best to resolve this as quickly as possible
"

I also see on Facebook that he has a wife and two small daughters.  Running his own new small business especially in the current economical climate and over Christmas season when no one has money, what if he does need the bike to sell to be able to start paying you back. Bikes Sales are awful at the moment. No one has money for luxuries.

I admire your morals and ethics, but can you really control what Shaun does with the bike. You say that you don't want to pay R1,000 to get a detailed break-down as to what is wrong with the bike. But I would have thought that is where one should start.  To see what exactly is wrong and how much it would cost to fix. Once he has the list of damages he can get it fixed where he works or with one of his colleagues. What he sells it for the next person is between him and the next person, but at least he can then start paying you back. Or have the bike sitting at another bike shop. I don't think Buyers are going to come to your house. Shaun knows that you will put the Buyers off. Sitting at your house you are forcing a solution that may not be possible and could be a statement unless you have a solution which I really hope you do for all concerned.  :thumleft: :thumleft:

I believe its a principal thing.

Too many times these type of people get away with what they do only to live another day to do it to the next (unknowing) person.

The biggest problem in the world is not 'evil men' , but the indifference of good men.

Carpe bm
 

Offline Rynet

Re: Lessons learnt in buying a used motorcycle.....from a friend
« Reply #99 on: January 22, 2020, 09:11:23 am »

I believe its a principal thing.

Too many times these type of people get away with what they do only to live another day to do it to the next (unknowing) person.

The biggest problem in the world is not 'evil men' , but the indifference of good men.

It is VERY expensive to have principles.
If you sue on principles please know you may lose a lot more money and at the end you may walk away with nothing. It takes years to get a court date and by that time the momentum of the thing has passed

Suing " on principle" is the worse thing you can do in my experience. I found that you get more results by working with the other party and get a solution early on and walk way with most of your money, rather than sit on your principles and not budge. The opposed legal system is long and expensive. Compromise, find a solution and walk away richer in wisdom but a few rand poorer.

Having said that , I am sure that Rouxman's attorney has a solution. I hope he has.  :thumleft: