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Author Topic: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?  (Read 908 times)

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Offline Mapog

When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« on: April 16, 2020, 07:03:13 pm »
Looking at the 2T threads running, I cant help but to think how nonchalant they are regarding 2Ts. They all used to make good 2Ts, but they dont want/arent interested/ environmental laws keep them from doing?

Would they aver wake up? It seem as if they are lagging behind and have no intention of catching up.

KTM have nice fuel injection running and there are even new direct injection technology on the horizon.
 Yamaha, the Jap manufacturer that still make 2Ts, dont even have fuel injection yet?
When will they launch DI?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 09:29:04 pm by Mapog »
 

Offline sidetrack

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2020, 07:07:48 pm »
The YZ's did get new style plastics about two years ago ...
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Offline katana

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2020, 07:12:16 pm »
I suppose it is more due to the use different sports to promote their products.  I doubt if Honda or Suzuki would run a factory team at Ertzberg.  The hard enduro scene is the home of 2 strokes.

MX and enduro cross work well these days with 4t's.

Thoughts?
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Offline MonkeyNot

Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2020, 07:12:29 pm »
Looking at the 2T freds running, I cant help but to think how nonchalant they are regarding 2Ts. They all used to make good 2Ts, but they dont want/arent interested/ environmental laws keep them from doing?

Would they aver wake up? It seem as if they are lagging behind and have no intention of catching up.

KTM have nice fuel injection running and there are even new direct injection technology on the horizon.
 Yamaha, the Jap manufacturer that still make 2Ts, dont even have fuel injection yet?
When will they launch DI?
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Good read regarding your post

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2020, 07:21:57 pm »
The share price, the environment, the share price, nasty motorbikes tearing up the hiking trails, the share price etc etc priorities 🙄
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Offline katana

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2020, 07:37:11 pm »
A good read.

Back in 1999 when I bought my Aprilia Pegasso, there were rumors that Aprilia was working on a street legal 600cc 4 cylinder 2t.  I salivated.

If it ever was, emissions killed it I suppose.  But just imagine.
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2020, 09:24:54 pm »
23 years ago this year, Yamaha launched it's Fuel injected 2strokes on their outboard range.

But for Yamaha in their marine engines, TPI is old news, they have been on HPDI for many years, injecting the fuel into the cylinder AFTER the exhaust port has closed.

I also cannot understand why Yamaha is allowing the 2stroke motorcycle to lag.
 
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Offline Mapog

Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2020, 09:32:48 pm »
My thoughts as well.
They have, why not use it?
Dont want to overcomplicate things?
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2020, 09:52:40 pm »
My thoughts as well.
They have, why not use it?
Dont want to overcomplicate things?

I believe that Yamaha's structure as a corporate works very differently to say KTM.

For KTM their motorcycle sales is everything, for Yamaha it is just a part of Yamaha corporation.

But if you look back at the DT-1, RD range, etc, then Yamaha is asleep on their porridge bowl right now.
 

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2020, 10:03:40 pm »
23 years ago this year, Yamaha launched it's Fuel injected 2strokes on their outboard range.

But for Yamaha in their marine engines, TPI is old news, they have been on HPDI for many years, injecting the fuel into the cylinder AFTER the exhaust port has closed.

I also cannot understand why Yamaha is allowing the 2stroke motorcycle to lag.
AFAIK large diesel 2 strokes still power large ships.  That must say something.  Where to fit a compressor on an enduro bike though  :pot:  No need for 2t oil then.
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Online BuRP

Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2020, 10:18:59 pm »
they have been on HPDI for many years, injecting the fuel into the cylinder AFTER the exhaust port has closed.

As fantastic as that is (and it really is because in a minutely short time they must get good mixing right, not by any means easy!) that still leaves the 2T's Achilles Heel .... unburnt oil in the exhaust gases.
And that will, almost has already, spelled its doom and disappearance because environmental laws get stricter and stricter.
The current crop of KTM's 300's are Euro 4 compliant, achieved without any catalyst or exhaust particulate filtering, nothing.... but Euro 4 compliant!
That is truly amazing, however also the pinnacle: Euro 5 won't be possible without tackling exhaust gas cleaning and/or filtering/treatment/why.
But, that is nigh on impossible because a Cat needs a relatively high (and constant) temperature to operate effectively, and the pressure waves within the resonant exhaust system - which is absolutely crucial for the performance of this type of engine! - cause temperatures to fluctuate due to high and low pressure areas... which unfortunately travel throughout the entire length of the exhaust system, hence with it the temperature fluctuations also.
In addition it is almost impossible, I think definitely practically, to 'treat' the exhaust gas without disturbing (read: diminishing) the resonant waves hence affecting the effective output of the engine.
Strokers are a dying breed kept alive in ICU by KTM only, never mind some odd little others, but how long this will be legally tolerated by the powers that be is anyone's guess.

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Are you fu&^%g nuts?
LOVE them!  :thumleft:
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 10:21:08 pm by BuRP »
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2020, 10:35:31 pm »
The YZ's did get new style plastics about two years ago ...

And that new plastics got a 15 year old unaltered design 3rd spot in last years' Roof. :biggrin:
 

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2020, 07:31:05 am »
The KTM 300 is only Euro4 compliant when running a very different exhaust with lamda sensor closed loop fueling. They make about 10 hp in that configuration. Those pipes come in the crate and get thrown straight in the bin.
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Offline Rossdog

Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2020, 07:42:33 am »
A decade from now, the scenario may be different. Hydrogen powered 2 stroke prototypes are already being tested for MotoGP. Imagine if this technology filters down; we will have the best of both worlds, the thrill of a 2 stroke with no smelly pre-mix and blue clouds, the only emission being pure water.
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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2020, 07:54:47 am »
A decade from now, the scenario may be different. Hydrogen powered 2 stroke prototypes are already being tested for MotoGP. Imagine if this technology filters down; we will have the best of both worlds, the thrill of a 2 stroke with no smelly pre-mix and blue clouds, the only emission being pure water.

A decade from now, the Dakar bikes will make their own water. :thumleft:
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2020, 08:32:30 am »
OK, let us look at history regarding this, and this is off the top of my head only, so no years, dates, etc.

The Japanese have always been strong, up to 2000, dominant, in motocross.  Yet enduro bikes have never been a Japanese strongpoint.

Yamaha had the late70's IT range, which was probably the best enduro range to come from Japan, and they had some success with them. Suzuki had the PE range of bikes, but big success evaded them.

Kawasaki's KDX range ran the longest, and built a loyal following because of their toughness.

The last  proper enduro bike was the KDX200, discontinued in 2006, by which time the KTM200 overshadowed it.

Today, only Yamaha offers a version of an enduro bike, and this machine, the YZ250X, is a factory-converted MX bike.

My point??

The Japanese have for some reason, never had their hearts into 2stroke enduro bikes, and I do not know whether this will ever change.
 

Online TheBear

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2020, 09:01:15 am »
OK, let us look at history regarding this, and this is off the top of my head only, so no years, dates, etc.

The Japanese have always been strong, up to 2000, dominant, in motocross.  Yet enduro bikes have never been a Japanese strongpoint.

Yamaha had the late70's IT range, which was probably the best enduro range to come from Japan, and they had some success with them. Suzuki had the PE range of bikes, but big success evaded them.

Kawasaki's KDX range ran the longest, and built a loyal following because of their toughness.

The last  proper enduro bike was the KDX200, discontinued in 2006, by which time the KTM200 overshadowed it.

Today, only Yamaha offers a version of an enduro bike, and this machine, the YZ250X, is a factory-converted MX bike.

My point??

The Japanese have for some reason, never had their hearts into 2stroke enduro bikes, and I do not know whether this will ever change.

Perhaps (and I have no idea, just guessing here) the Japanese always concentrated on road bikes.  Similar to KTM, until very recently concentrated on off-road bikes and the Europeans (excluding KTM) on bigger road bikes.  Each designed, build and marketed for a specific market and while the cash was rolling in, from that  market, didn't worry too much about expanding.  With globalisation and various other economic pressures markets changed and some made changes to their typical business plan.  KTM / Road Bikes, BMW / smaller bikes, etc.

Agreed Danie on Yamaha and a 2T engine.  If we look at their marine engines, they should be able to build a pretty nifty 2T bike engine.  I don't think they see a need.
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Offline Roxtar

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2020, 12:28:27 pm »
The Japanese actually hate 2T imo…. they lead the way in MotoGP away from the 2T era with Honda being the main protagonist in this arena....
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2020, 12:50:58 pm »
The Japanese actually hate 2T imo…. they lead the way in MotoGP away from the 2T era with Honda being the main protagonist in this arena....

When you are sold a 4stroke, instead of a 2stroke, you are also buying a lot of parts extra from the OEM. Afterwards your 4stroke is also bound to earn the OEM much more in maintenance and parts.

It gives the manufacturer license to sell you a 2stroke, and then go like; "Hey, you've got to also buy this camshaft, chain, tensioner, 4 valves, springs, seals, cotters and ugly sound along with the bike" :eek7:

One of the main drives behind the 4stroke rush, from an economical and business perspective.
 

Offline Mapog

Re: When would the Japs catch up with 2T, if ever?
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2020, 02:56:17 pm »
If Yamie could just put FI on their bikes.
Surely cant be that difficult?

Direct injection is the real difficult one to master on 2Ts?