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Offline Constantinople

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #920 on: January 12, 2021, 12:22:38 pm »
From AdvRider

heinzkini Bad news today's tage! Stage 8 is a bad day for us: Toby Price crashed badly and broke his shoulder, both wrists and foot..! Luciano Benavides also crashed and broke his arm!
 

Offline Buff

Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #921 on: January 12, 2021, 12:26:30 pm »
...
No, of course not, racers are animals by nature but they're getting penalized for exceeding max speed limits so there's an incentive to keep it in the "safety" zone. How quickly they get to 180 will obviously change but that risk is lower, surely? There's only so much that can be extracted from a 450 motor and they're finding that limit now.

Why do you say that? Is there high attrition rate this year? Doesn't seem so at all - but admittedly I'm not up to speed. It seems only Yamaha's have problem - nothing dramatic (at least engine wise) with KTM, Husky's and Hondas. Maybe Yamaha should finally enter 21st century and put 6 speed gearbox on their 450, like all the competitors did...

From where I sit 450s are more than capable of all of this. It's been few years now when most of the teams run the whole event on one engine, while at the introduction of 450s most were changing engines half way through.

What makes you think that 450 engines are not up to this kind of job?

Based on the Yamaha's dying and the comments from the top contenders, including Toby & Sam. But like I said, that's just my opinion and the fact I've raced a 450, abeit old ones and not Dakar blue printed motors. But yeah, maybe it's just Yamaha that's sucking the hind tit, let's wait and see what the rest of the race delivers  :thumleft: Maybe it's time for @2StrokeDan to send Yamaha Europe an email  ;)
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Offline Rooi Wolf

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #922 on: January 12, 2021, 12:33:19 pm »
Any more details around Toby or Kevin's crashes in terms of how it happenned?

Seems unreal that TP could blast the stage yesterday on that tyre, without incident, only to crash out today.

Gutted for him!!
 

Offline Buff

Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #923 on: January 12, 2021, 12:34:18 pm »
From AdvRider

heinzkini Bad news today's tage! Stage 8 is a bad day for us: Toby Price crashed badly and broke his shoulder, both wrists and foot..! Luciano Benavides also crashed and broke his arm!

Ouch, that's some nasty injuries  :o
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Offline Kamanya

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #924 on: January 12, 2021, 12:38:59 pm »
...
No, of course not, racers are animals by nature but they're getting penalized for exceeding max speed limits so there's an incentive to keep it in the "safety" zone. How quickly they get to 180 will obviously change but that risk is lower, surely? There's only so much that can be extracted from a 450 motor and they're finding that limit now.

Why do you say that? Is there high attrition rate this year? Doesn't seem so at all - but admittedly I'm not up to speed. It seems only Yamaha's have problem - nothing dramatic (at least engine wise) with KTM, Husky's and Hondas. Maybe Yamaha should finally enter 21st century and put 6 speed gearbox on their 450, like all the competitors did...

From where I sit 450s are more than capable of all of this. It's been few years now when most of the teams run the whole event on one engine, while at the introduction of 450s most were changing engines half way through.

What makes you think that 450 engines are not up to this kind of job?

I agree. The current crop of 450 engines are amazing jewels of engineering. Last year not one KTM engine across the entire field failed. But here's a little bit of insight from a guy on ADVrider who has a Dakar under his belt and not only knows alot about the progression of the the Rally bike from the big litre class monsters to the 450's, but owns them too...

https://advrider.com/f/threads/2021-saudi-dakar-official-coverage-thread-covid-resistant-f5irehose.1481846/page-161#post-41579819

Quote from: neduro, post: 41579819, member: 3524

 I've been lucky to ride and/or own a few generations of RFR, including 660, 690, and the first two generations of 450. Since it is the rest day and we have nothing better to do, I'll share my thoughts.

The 660 is a rough and ready hot-rod. The motor is a bit brutal, the build quality is spotty to be generous, and they are an absolute blast to ride. It is loud, coarse, mean, and a bit unforgiving.

The 690 is a huge step forward in refinement. Lots of bespoke parts, much tidier packaging, and at least the first version (a 654cc displacement) was more mellow. That doesn't mean it was slow, just it didn't have a huge step in power as it came on song. The defining characteristic is stability- it will hold a line where an enduro bike is wagging all around.

The first gen 450 is a 690 with a smaller motor slotted in. I imagined that would be a step back, but that isn't actually my experience as a racebike. The bike clearly handles better as a 450, maybe a little because of weight but I think more because of rotating mass. It's more playful, and for me, it's easier to race. The 450 begs to be ridden aggressively where the 690 demands more respect. In terrain that is even semi-technical, I am willing to bet I'd go quicker on the 450 than I will on the same motorcycle with a 690 motor in it. Much like 250 MXers often set competitive 450 lap times with an open track, I think the smaller motor doesn't necessarily equate to less speed on course.

Given my experience riding the various bikes, I do not believe that the 450 rule really slowed people down much- to the contrary, I think it opened up a more aggressive riding style than was possible on the bigger bikes. When coupled with the change to South America, where the terrain was more technical as well... I think it is fair to say things moved along. I agree the move to 450 helped get more manufacturers and teams in the mix, which can only be a good thing.

Finally, I was lucky to buy Skyler's 2019 bike before this race to help him fund his adventure.

I don't have much time on it yet, but it immediately feels compact, tight, and fast. This one is an ex-factory bike, so it has 52mm forks and other goodies, and if you go faster than seems reasonable, it feels magical. On the other hand, if you slow down, it punishes you. I'm really excited to get to know it better.

I have no time on the latest generation RFR, but everyone says the motor is better up high (but worse down low), and that the chassis took another step toward being even more compact, again in response to more technical stages.

There will be a new RFR this year, in the "Up Front" show they avoid a clear shot but from the little you can see, it appears the new bike may not be a trellis frame. Will be interesting to see what they come out with.

I've spent time around the current Yamaha and Honda, but never ridden them. The Yamaha is very much an MX'er with a lot of energy put in to make it work as a rallybike. The Honda is MotoGP meets Dualsport- incredible attention to detail, and no expense spared. The kickstand is carbon fiber, for example. It looks amazing.


Finally, I do think there is a "spiritual" connection between dakar bikes and adventure bikes. They share exactly no parts, but some styling queues, and I think customers (including me!) feel like they might be Meoni when they slide their adventure bike up a dirt road. For a moment they are the star of the rally, even if there is no one there to witness it.

So, the bottom line is that the current 450's are durable, safer for the rider and very very quick.

The capacity limit was brought down to make them safer. The contemporary thinking being that speed was the danger. It wasn't, the irony was that the average speeds hardly moved even as the terrain became far more technical.  Making them smaller and lighter made them safer and easier to ride and ultimately quicker to ride. However it has to be said that todays 450's are pumping out 75hp, only 25hp less than Meoni's Daka winning 950cc KTM!

I would bet that no other capacity of bike in the current format of rally would be quicker. Those monsters of yesteryear are simply too heavy and even the 690 class are still just not nimble enough.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 12:39:52 pm by Kamanya »
I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

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Offline edgy

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #925 on: January 12, 2021, 12:41:06 pm »
I would love to know the various teams/manufacturers budgets and whats the difference in what Honda/KTM/Yamaha/Husky etc throw at the Dakar specifically! 
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Offline Bobby Chang

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #926 on: January 12, 2021, 12:54:16 pm »
Things are hotting up, top contenders all hungry for victory.
Nice video of TP`s toys, but I dont smaak that pick ups hanging on the ground though.



WOW, I want a garage like that................ 8)
 

Offline mark250gp

Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #927 on: January 12, 2021, 12:58:05 pm »
Has anyone seen the swingarm on the Yamaha Rallye bike? If its the same as the YZ / WR that we see on the production bikes then they've known about these tabs breaking (If thats what happened to Ross) off for a long time and should have bloody well sorted that out by now. WRT to the engines, yes its racing, yes shit happens, yes you are supposed to look after your machine but for the two motor to pop in two days is not solely about the rider and reflects really really poorly on Monster Energy Yamaha.

I am so upset for Ross, his first year on a factory team and his machine has let him down to the extent of a pretty good shot a podium, an outside chance of a win to not even finishing the race. Hopefully they either sort that bike out or he go's somewhere else. He certainly has the speed and talent so he is owed a decent reliable bike.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 01:03:56 pm by mark250gp »
 
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Offline Tman21

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #928 on: January 12, 2021, 12:59:14 pm »
So am I correct in saying Cornejo took it flag to flag today meaning he did not see any other bike today.

Loosing 1"34' doesnt seem like the end of the world for leading the pack?
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Offline sidetrack

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #929 on: January 12, 2021, 01:14:12 pm »
The 26 mins Sunderland is down is that before he gets his time back helping Toby ?
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Offline sidetrack

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #930 on: January 12, 2021, 01:14:55 pm »
Imagine a Honda 1, 2, 3, 4 .......
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Offline Tman21

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #931 on: January 12, 2021, 01:23:26 pm »
The 26 mins Sunderland is down is that before he gets his time back helping Toby ?

Jip, assume Brabec and Sunderland would get around 15-20min each
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Offline Bobby Chang

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #932 on: January 12, 2021, 01:25:00 pm »
09:49 Broken engine for Branch
Following Franco Caimi yesterday, now Ross Branch has fallen foul of engine problems. The man from Botswana is unable to repair it, meaning it is another blow for Yamaha!

AAHH NO, Too sad.......well done Ross, you will win Dakar one day, for sure
 

Offline sidetrack

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #933 on: January 12, 2021, 01:29:19 pm »
I would love to know the various teams/manufacturers budgets and whats the difference in what Honda/KTM/Yamaha/Husky etc throw at the Dakar specifically!
Talking about budgets on the Honda looks like machined calipers and lots of CF all round  :drif:
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Offline Rooi Wolf

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #934 on: January 12, 2021, 01:29:39 pm »
Imagine a Honda 1, 2, 3, 4 .......

These 4 riders are proving to be quite a force!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 01:40:35 pm by Rooi Wolf »
 

Offline I&horse

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #935 on: January 12, 2021, 01:41:59 pm »
What happened to the rule of changing an engine and take a 20min penalty?

Yamaha surely must have known that Ross' engine may not last, so why not swop it?

Rather take a penalty and get to the end, or is it an ego issue

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Yes why can't they change the engine? If I remember right Paulo Concalves (RIP Speedy) once changed an engine during a stage
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Offline RobC

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #936 on: January 12, 2021, 01:52:25 pm »
I hope that Ross gets picked up by Honda or KTM for next year, he deserves to ride in a more reliable team.
 

Offline RobC

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #937 on: January 12, 2021, 01:56:03 pm »
The bikes should start breaking now!!! Al of them !!  Yamaha just leads the way!
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Offline Rough Rider

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #938 on: January 12, 2021, 02:02:05 pm »
Everything state of the art and a cable clutch  :laughing4:
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Offline Motties

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #939 on: January 12, 2021, 02:03:28 pm »
I hope that Ross gets picked up by Honda or KTM for next year, he deserves to ride in a more reliable team.
I hope so too. :thumleft:
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