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Offline lowrider

Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1220 on: January 19, 2021, 12:14:02 pm »
If they went back to 600 - 700cc the engines would be much cheaper to produce for the same reliability.

The Yamaha Quad bikes are Raptor 700cc afaik, and they took most of the top 10 spots...perhaps they are reliable, or perhaps they had the numbers on their side..
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1221 on: January 19, 2021, 12:42:41 pm »
There is no ways they are going to start messing with engine size again, especially during these economic times (consider even MotoGP has a R&D moratorium in place presently). At the end of the day this is racing not ballroom dancing. The guys are going to go as fast as they can, there will take risks, and yes there will be accidents. All are givens. As with most projectiles there is a terminal velocity and they will reach as close to it as is humanly possible. Capische.  8)
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1222 on: January 19, 2021, 01:31:38 pm »
There is no ways they are going to start messing with engine size again, especially during these economic times (consider even MotoGP has a R&D moratorium in place presently). At the end of the day this is racing not ballroom dancing. The guys are going to go as fast as they can, there will take risks, and yes there will be accidents. All are givens. As with most projectiles there is a terminal velocity and they will reach as close to it as is humanly possible. Capische.  8)

Not quite, given current imposed speed restrictions.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 01:32:02 pm by bud500 »
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1223 on: January 19, 2021, 01:56:30 pm »
Perhaps everything raced in the Dakar should be homologated for regular road use with x amount having to be sold to the public, which should even the playing field out a bit. At least that way we can get our hands on those Honda's. 
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Offline uaedesertfox

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1224 on: January 19, 2021, 02:02:20 pm »
The Yamaha Quad bikes are Raptor 700cc afaik, and they took most of the top 10 spots...perhaps they are reliable, or perhaps they had the numbers on their side..
[/quote]

So glad that someone finally noticed the Yamaha clean sweep in the Quads.... Thought our armchair specialists would have seen this result way earlier   :lol8: :lol8:
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1225 on: January 19, 2021, 02:03:39 pm »
I say load the bikes on trailers/truck for those long tar liaisons, it is not part of the rally anyway and we do not get to see it. Make some of the race stages longer. No use saying it is a 10 000 kms race and half is spent on tar.
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Offline bud500

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1226 on: January 19, 2021, 02:43:16 pm »
Perhaps everything raced in the Dakar should be homologated for regular road use with x amount having to be sold to the public, which should even the playing field out a bit. At least that way we can get our hands on those Honda's.

Such a class exists for the Cars.
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1227 on: January 19, 2021, 03:05:51 pm »
Probably too late to chime in now, but my worthless observations.

1. Barreda let me down once again, but I will continue to root for him, hoping he can avoid any weird (self induced..?) ) disasters next year. I remember when he first blitzed the Dakar with his crazy speed and go-fast-now approach.. Man, the wheelbarrow loads of panties that got knotted on this forum, shouting at him to keep his front wheel on the ground... Geez, looking at the riding styles these days, I cannot imagine drastic wear on front tires. Yeah, I'd say he pioneered a new approach to the Dakar.

 2. Interesting the discussion about engine size. I'd frame the question this way: If all engine restrictions were removed from the manufacturers, what size engine would they field? I'd wager that the current 450's will beat a 650 bike due to lighter weight and improved agility over technical terrain. Are there enough straight sections on "safe" terrain where top speed is an overall advantage? Perhaps the 450 really is the sweet spot. I'd think it is pretty close.

3. Winning is still very much a matter of consistency and not having a major setback. The race is not won by a brilliant performance in certain days, but rather lost by riders who blow it or experience bad luck. This year it could have been won by any number of guys. Price, Bravic, in fact the entire Honda team, Branch, Sunderland who chilled it out till well into the second week.. Yes, the jo-jo effect was new this year, but it was a pretty open race throughout.   

4. Same observation with the cars re engine sizes and configuration. It is such cock-up to have all these regulations to align 4x4 and buggy performance. I'm 100% sure Al-Attiya would have won all the Dakars while with Toyota had he not been in a Toyota. And it has nothing to do with the car, but with the regulations imposed to limit Toyota/4x4's. Dakar is such a varied and hellishly demanding event, unlike F1/MotoGP which is largely driven by horsepower, I say have it more unregulated and let the race itself level things out. Design the course so that top end speed is NOT a factor. Or impose a speed limit and nothing else. Had Toyota not been in the game of selling 4x4's, they'd also be building buggies as it is clearly the superior platform. So ja, I think the limitations are way too severe on Toyota, and if nothing else they should allow the same regulations to negate the disproportionate amount of flats the 4x4's experience and the time it takes them to change. Because currently that is what decides the rally: Tyre management.

Either way, was pretty great race, super stoked for Honda and Argentina, solid by Toyota. Next year clean podium sweep by Honda.

I think if engine size restrictions were dropped my bet would be that the manufacturers would increase the capacity back to to 600 -700 cc as they can run these engine at a lower load for higher durability.

Nope, then you are not trying to win, a course laid out for 700cc wont work out for the 450cc and vice versa.  8)
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Offline Rough Rider

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1228 on: January 19, 2021, 03:26:19 pm »
Probably too late to chime in now, but my worthless observations.

1. Barreda let me down once again, but I will continue to root for him, hoping he can avoid any weird (self induced..?) ) disasters next year. I remember when he first blitzed the Dakar with his crazy speed and go-fast-now approach.. Man, the wheelbarrow loads of panties that got knotted on this forum, shouting at him to keep his front wheel on the ground... Geez, looking at the riding styles these days, I cannot imagine drastic wear on front tires. Yeah, I'd say he pioneered a new approach to the Dakar.

 2. Interesting the discussion about engine size. I'd frame the question this way: If all engine restrictions were removed from the manufacturers, what size engine would they field? I'd wager that the current 450's will beat a 650 bike due to lighter weight and improved agility over technical terrain. Are there enough straight sections on "safe" terrain where top speed is an overall advantage? Perhaps the 450 really is the sweet spot. I'd think it is pretty close.

3. Winning is still very much a matter of consistency and not having a major setback. The race is not won by a brilliant performance in certain days, but rather lost by riders who blow it or experience bad luck. This year it could have been won by any number of guys. Price, Bravic, in fact the entire Honda team, Branch, Sunderland who chilled it out till well into the second week.. Yes, the jo-jo effect was new this year, but it was a pretty open race throughout.   

4. Same observation with the cars re engine sizes and configuration. It is such cock-up to have all these regulations to align 4x4 and buggy performance. I'm 100% sure Al-Attiya would have won all the Dakars while with Toyota had he not been in a Toyota. And it has nothing to do with the car, but with the regulations imposed to limit Toyota/4x4's. Dakar is such a varied and hellishly demanding event, unlike F1/MotoGP which is largely driven by horsepower, I say have it more unregulated and let the race itself level things out. Design the course so that top end speed is NOT a factor. Or impose a speed limit and nothing else. Had Toyota not been in the game of selling 4x4's, they'd also be building buggies as it is clearly the superior platform. So ja, I think the limitations are way too severe on Toyota, and if nothing else they should allow the same regulations to negate the disproportionate amount of flats the 4x4's experience and the time it takes them to change. Because currently that is what decides the rally: Tyre management.

Either way, was pretty great race, super stoked for Honda and Argentina, solid by Toyota. Next year clean podium sweep by Honda.

I think if engine size restrictions were dropped my bet would be that the manufacturers would increase the capacity back to to 600 -700 cc as they can run these engine at a lower load for higher durability.

Bollocks, my 690 will go anywhere my 250 goes.

Nope, then you are not trying to win, a course laid out for 700cc wont work out for the 450cc and vice versa.  8)
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1229 on: January 19, 2021, 04:40:28 pm »
Bollocks, my 690 will go anywhere my 250 goes.

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1230 on: January 19, 2021, 06:40:32 pm »
Bollocks, my 690 will go anywhere my 250 goes.

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250 Tornado yes.
 
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1231 on: January 19, 2021, 06:56:19 pm »
If they went back to 600 - 700cc the engines would be much cheaper to produce for the same reliability.

The Yamaha Quad bikes are Raptor 700cc afaik, and they took most of the top 10 spots...perhaps they are reliable, or perhaps they had the numbers on their side..
XT based reliability  :thumleft:
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1232 on: January 19, 2021, 07:20:16 pm »
Bollocks, my 690 will go anywhere my 250 goes.

 :imaposer:
So have you ever RACED?  :-\  Huge difference from my 690 can do this to my 690 can run a competitive time.  :sip:
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 07:25:52 pm by Welsh »
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Offline mark250gp

Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1233 on: January 19, 2021, 08:06:02 pm »
690 size motor in a slightly bigger frame? The 690 has lots of grunt and much much longer service intervals meaning it should be more reliable over distance.
 

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1234 on: January 19, 2021, 08:15:30 pm »
690 size motor in a slightly bigger frame? The 690 has lots of grunt and much much longer service intervals meaning it should be more reliable over distance.

Is nobody listening, 450's can last the distance, only Yamaha had kark (maybe as its not a Rallye Bike) a  bigger capacity lower tuned bike might suit Mal Motto, but it will WIN fark all!!!!  ::)
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1235 on: January 20, 2021, 08:42:07 am »
690 size motor in a slightly bigger frame? The 690 has lots of grunt and much much longer service intervals meaning it should be more reliable over distance.

Is nobody listening, 450's can last the distance, only Yamaha had kark (maybe as its not a Rallye Bike) a  bigger capacity lower tuned bike might suit Mal Motto, but it will WIN fark all!!!!  ::)

Those 450's are bespoke engines that cost a bloody fortune.
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1236 on: January 20, 2021, 08:44:04 am »
Bollocks, my 690 will go anywhere my 250 goes.

 :imaposer:
So have you ever RACED?  :-\  Huge difference from my 690 can do this to my 690 can run a competitive time.  :sip:
[/quote

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1237 on: January 20, 2021, 08:45:44 am »
Bollocks, my 690 will go anywhere my 250 goes.

 :imaposer:

250 Tornado yes.

Sies Dan, I would rather have my sister in whorehouse than my brother on a Honda.
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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1238 on: January 20, 2021, 01:59:44 pm »
Bollocks, my 690 will go anywhere my 250 goes.

 :imaposer:

250 Tornado yes.

Sies Dan, I would rather have my sister in whorehouse than my brother on a Honda.

 :thumleft: :thumleft:
 

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Re: DAKAR 2021
« Reply #1239 on: January 20, 2021, 02:04:55 pm »
690 size motor in a slightly bigger frame? The 690 has lots of grunt and much much longer service intervals meaning it should be more reliable over distance.

Is nobody listening, 450's can last the distance, only Yamaha had kark (maybe as its not a Rallye Bike) a  bigger capacity lower tuned bike might suit Mal Motto, but it will WIN fark all!!!!  ::)

Those 450's are bespoke engines that cost a bloody fortune.
Cant see a 690 Dakar race motor be any cheaper
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