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Offline TheBear

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #220 on: March 13, 2021, 10:18:39 am »
Final day of testing saw an huge sandstorm screwing it up and very few riders went on track.  In fact, only 5 did.

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Offline TheBear

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #221 on: March 13, 2021, 10:27:11 am »
Combined times for all the testing from the past three days.  Nothing new compared to previous seasons. 

Yamaha doing great with three bikes in top 5 and all four bikes in top 11 with VR46 the slowest Yamaha.
Suzuki nicely middle of the pack.
Ducati fastest, middle of the pack and almost slowest.
KTM struggling with 16th their best effort.
One Aprilia looking good, one not so much.
Honda looking okay, but it must be a worry that the Honda rookie, Pol Espargaro is easily fastest of the lot.   
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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #222 on: March 13, 2021, 02:44:21 pm »
Yeah Bahrain also had a huge sandstorm where the F1 guys are testing. Maybe the same one that just blew over.
 

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #223 on: March 14, 2021, 07:58:18 pm »
Yeah Bahrain also had a huge sandstorm where the F1 guys are testing. Maybe the same one that just blew over.

Perhaps it's those Hondas in the sandtraps again.......... :o
 

Offline Kamanya

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #224 on: March 14, 2021, 08:23:12 pm »
I would love to see an engineering discussion on how chassis design affects turning in GP bikes. Not just the concept but an uber deep dive nerding out on the various designers and how they integrate their thinking into both the machine, but I presume, they also have some regard for the type of rider and their styles too.

But, like most things in that world, I suppose that's locked up behind some pretty epic non-disclosure contracts and serious professional competitiveness.
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Offline TheBear

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #225 on: March 14, 2021, 10:04:38 pm »
I would love to see an engineering discussion on how chassis design affects turning in GP bikes. Not just the concept but an uber deep dive nerding out on the various designers and how they integrate their thinking into both the machine, but I presume, they also have some regard for the type of rider and their styles too.

But, like most things in that world, I suppose that's locked up behind some pretty epic non-disclosure contracts and serious professional competitiveness.

I think the basics is pretty straight forward and a few minutes on Google, or even with a club level racer will explain that.  It is once you measure success in 0,001s that it becomes a very complicated issue hidden behind some serious NDAs.
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Offline Kamanya

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #226 on: March 14, 2021, 10:34:59 pm »
I would love to see an engineering discussion on how chassis design affects turning in GP bikes. Not just the concept but an uber deep dive nerding out on the various designers and how they integrate their thinking into both the machine, but I presume, they also have some regard for the type of rider and their styles too.

But, like most things in that world, I suppose that's locked up behind some pretty epic non-disclosure contracts and serious professional competitiveness.

I think the basics is pretty straight forward and a few minutes on Google, or even with a club level racer will explain that.  It is once you measure success in 0,001s that it becomes a very complicated issue hidden behind some serious NDAs.

See that's the thing, google and YouTube parrot the same stuff; Stiffness in the vertical when out of the corner and under braking to give the suspension something solid to work from, but flexibility laterally when laid over to aid the tyre in absorbing bumps in the corners. I get it. But there's' no one who goes into the weeds about the finer details of design.

So, for example graphic plots of frame twist/flex at the same points per GP bike would be fun.... and never going to happen.
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Offline TheBear

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #227 on: March 14, 2021, 11:14:00 pm »
I would love to see an engineering discussion on how chassis design affects turning in GP bikes. Not just the concept but an uber deep dive nerding out on the various designers and how they integrate their thinking into both the machine, but I presume, they also have some regard for the type of rider and their styles too.

But, like most things in that world, I suppose that's locked up behind some pretty epic non-disclosure contracts and serious professional competitiveness.

I think the basics is pretty straight forward and a few minutes on Google, or even with a club level racer will explain that.  It is once you measure success in 0,001s that it becomes a very complicated issue hidden behind some serious NDAs.

See that's the thing, google and YouTube parrot the same stuff; Stiffness in the vertical when out of the corner and under braking to give the suspension something solid to work from, but flexibility laterally when laid over to aid the tyre in absorbing bumps in the corners. I get it. But there's' no one who goes into the weeds about the finer details of design.

So, for example graphic plots of frame twist/flex at the same points per GP bike would be fun.... and never going to happen.

Yeah, it won't happen.  Not the finer detail, or at least not till some of these parts make it onto superbikes sold into the market.  Of course, while this happens, it is always some years behind where MotoGP is.

I also think most of the secrets these days are in the software and fine tuning of the software and of course certain hardware components.  If we take some of the hardware, like the suspensions.  All, bar the KTMs use Ohlins.  Brakes.  They all use Brembo with prescribed disc and caliper sizes.  So, if they all have the same suspensions and brakes, it stands to reason that how they fine tune that makes the difference.  The software sounds like a dark science though.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 11:24:50 pm by TheBear »
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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #228 on: March 15, 2021, 11:28:24 am »
And interesting that the Ducati's have had laser sensors in place during practice measuring telemetry for all sorts of frame and aero inputs and tweaks. We know they have eye watering top speeds but have been working hard at the turn in and carrying corner speeds. 
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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #229 on: March 15, 2021, 11:53:54 am »
And interesting that the Ducati's have had laser sensors in place during practice measuring telemetry for all sorts of frame and aero inputs and tweaks. We know they have eye watering top speeds but have been working hard at the turn in and carrying corner speeds.

They are working very hard at cornering ability and I will not be surprised if sometime during the season, we hear some grumbling, possibly even a protest or two, about those strange looking tunnels inside their lowering fairings.  I have read that an F1 aerodynamic expert believes it is to work like winglets, while the bike is cranked over.  Personally, I cannot wait to see if this is true and if so, does it work.  Of course, if it works, dear old Uncle Gigi, once again, left the competition one step behind.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 11:54:30 am by TheBear »
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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #230 on: March 15, 2021, 12:03:26 pm »
And interesting that the Ducati's have had laser sensors in place during practice measuring telemetry for all sorts of frame and aero inputs and tweaks. We know they have eye watering top speeds but have been working hard at the turn in and carrying corner speeds.

They are working very hard at cornering ability and I will not be surprised if sometime during the season, we hear some grumbling, possibly even a protest or two, about those strange looking tunnels inside their lowering fairings.  I have read that an F1 aerodynamic expert believes it is to work like winglets, while the bike is cranked over.  Personally, I cannot wait to see if this is true and if so, does it work.  Of course, if it works, dear old Uncle Gigi, once again, left the competition one step behind.

Yes they are working with ground effect aerodynamics. Innovators as always. I must say Jack looks like a cat that found the cream.
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Offline TheBear

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #231 on: March 15, 2021, 12:30:04 pm »
And interesting that the Ducati's have had laser sensors in place during practice measuring telemetry for all sorts of frame and aero inputs and tweaks. We know they have eye watering top speeds but have been working hard at the turn in and carrying corner speeds.

They are working very hard at cornering ability and I will not be surprised if sometime during the season, we hear some grumbling, possibly even a protest or two, about those strange looking tunnels inside their lowering fairings.  I have read that an F1 aerodynamic expert believes it is to work like winglets, while the bike is cranked over.  Personally, I cannot wait to see if this is true and if so, does it work.  Of course, if it works, dear old Uncle Gigi, once again, left the competition one step behind.

Yes they are working with ground effect aerodynamics. Innovators as always. I must say Jack looks like a cat that found the cream.

Well, if I was Jack I would have a smile all the way around my head.  My ears would not even stop the smile.  It seems that they have that particular Ducati dialed in to be unbeatable.
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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #232 on: March 15, 2021, 12:35:44 pm »
And interesting that the Ducati's have had laser sensors in place during practice measuring telemetry for all sorts of frame and aero inputs and tweaks. We know they have eye watering top speeds but have been working hard at the turn in and carrying corner speeds.

They are working very hard at cornering ability and I will not be surprised if sometime during the season, we hear some grumbling, possibly even a protest or two, about those strange looking tunnels inside their lowering fairings.  I have read that an F1 aerodynamic expert believes it is to work like winglets, while the bike is cranked over.  Personally, I cannot wait to see if this is true and if so, does it work.  Of course, if it works, dear old Uncle Gigi, once again, left the competition one step behind.

Yes they are working with ground effect aerodynamics. Innovators as always. I must say Jack looks like a cat that found the cream.

Well, if I was Jack I would have a smile all the way around my head.  My ears would not even stop the smile.  It seems that they have that particular Ducati dialed in to be unbeatable.

On that track....
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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #233 on: March 15, 2021, 06:10:48 pm »
35 in action....maybe an R1 coming out in a scheme like this

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #234 on: March 15, 2021, 07:30:21 pm »
Celestino Vietti days to go..... :thumleft:




 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #235 on: March 15, 2021, 08:26:01 pm »
And interesting that the Ducati's have had laser sensors in place during practice measuring telemetry for all sorts of frame and aero inputs and tweaks. We know they have eye watering top speeds but have been working hard at the turn in and carrying corner speeds.

They are working very hard at cornering ability and I will not be surprised if sometime during the season, we hear some grumbling, possibly even a protest or two, about those strange looking tunnels inside their lowering fairings.  I have read that an F1 aerodynamic expert believes it is to work like winglets, while the bike is cranked over.  Personally, I cannot wait to see if this is true and if so, does it work.  Of course, if it works, dear old Uncle Gigi, once again, left the competition one step behind.

Yes they are working with ground effect aerodynamics. Innovators as always. I must say Jack looks like a cat that found the cream.

The way a motorcycle goes through turns, cranked over, will prevent the use of F1 type ground force designs, as that will have the same effect as adding weight in a corner, which slows corner speed.

The higher the topspeed attained, the harder or earlier you have to brake. the harder you brake, the more forces are fed into the chassis, and as we all know, bikes need to do 99% of hard braking BEFORE

they start turning.

I have always said that part of Ducati's "handling" problems is the top speeds they are being praised for. :snorting:
 

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #236 on: March 15, 2021, 09:29:29 pm »
Maybe ................ :thumleft:

That would explain why the slow Suzuki is the World Champion.

And that could explain why the previous year's Yamaha is always better than the current year's - it's too fast!!

Even though it's slower than the Ducati, the Honda, the KTM, the Aprilia, the Kawasaki, the BMW, the Loncin, etc ................... it's still too fast for itself
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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #237 on: March 16, 2021, 11:10:13 am »
And interesting that the Ducati's have had laser sensors in place during practice measuring telemetry for all sorts of frame and aero inputs and tweaks. We know they have eye watering top speeds but have been working hard at the turn in and carrying corner speeds.

They are working very hard at cornering ability and I will not be surprised if sometime during the season, we hear some grumbling, possibly even a protest or two, about those strange looking tunnels inside their lowering fairings.  I have read that an F1 aerodynamic expert believes it is to work like winglets, while the bike is cranked over.  Personally, I cannot wait to see if this is true and if so, does it work.  Of course, if it works, dear old Uncle Gigi, once again, left the competition one step behind.

Yes they are working with ground effect aerodynamics. Innovators as always. I must say Jack looks like a cat that found the cream.

Well, if I was Jack I would have a smile all the way around my head.  My ears would not even stop the smile.  It seems that they have that particular Ducati dialed in to be unbeatable.

On that track....

Indeed ....
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Offline TheBear

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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #238 on: March 16, 2021, 11:12:06 am »
Celestino Vietti days to go..... :thumleft:

Nice one, but I had this Ida Zetterstrom chick in mind.   :ricky:
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Re: MotoGP 2021
« Reply #239 on: March 16, 2021, 11:20:48 am »
And interesting that the Ducati's have had laser sensors in place during practice measuring telemetry for all sorts of frame and aero inputs and tweaks. We know they have eye watering top speeds but have been working hard at the turn in and carrying corner speeds.

They are working very hard at cornering ability and I will not be surprised if sometime during the season, we hear some grumbling, possibly even a protest or two, about those strange looking tunnels inside their lowering fairings.  I have read that an F1 aerodynamic expert believes it is to work like winglets, while the bike is cranked over.  Personally, I cannot wait to see if this is true and if so, does it work.  Of course, if it works, dear old Uncle Gigi, once again, left the competition one step behind.

Yes they are working with ground effect aerodynamics. Innovators as always. I must say Jack looks like a cat that found the cream.

The way a motorcycle goes through turns, cranked over, will prevent the use of F1 type ground force designs, as that will have the same effect as adding weight in a corner, which slows corner speed.

The higher the topspeed attained, the harder or earlier you have to brake. the harder you brake, the more forces are fed into the chassis, and as we all know, bikes need to do 99% of hard braking BEFORE

they start turning.

I have always said that part of Ducati's "handling" problems is the top speeds they are being praised for. :snorting:

While I tend to want to agree with you, I can't as I have to accept that the guys building those bikes, developing them and riding them would probably know more than you or I would. 

Then Max Oxley in his recent column tells two interesting stories. 

One is that well know F1 designer, John Barnard 10 years ago, was already wondering whether some method could be found to make ground effects on MotoGP bikes work.

The other one was that he interviewed team Roberts top notch techies, Mike Sinclair and Warren Willing in the 1990s.  He asked them if traction control would ever be seen on MotoGP bikes, similar those found in F1.  Both categorically stated that this would be impossible since bikes were too complex.


« Last Edit: March 16, 2021, 11:30:57 am by TheBear »
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