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Offline voorvel

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KTM lofsang
« on: March 05, 2021, 11:31:14 pm »
"If you are looking for the engine profile that Honda copied in 2021, then this is it."



Reading how some bitch and moan about KTM's failures, I thought I'd share just how much more advanced their bikes actually are.

Allow me to summarize:
  • lightest: 15 pounds lighter than the YZ450F and 18 pounds lighter than the RM-Z450
  • strongest brakes: The ďBig FourĒ Japanese brands have been throwing on 270mm rotors, new brake pads and calipers to try to keep KTMís Brembo brakes in sight. They are still behind the curve
  • most reliable clutch:  From its CNC-machined steel basket (with the primary gear machined into the basket) to its Belleville washer (instead of six separate coil springs) to its rubber-suspended cush inner hub to its self-adjusting Brembo hydraulics, no clutch on the track can take the kind of abuse that KTMís can. This is the dream clutch of every clutch abuser in America
  • braided-steel brake lines
  • Pankl transmission: No other motocross brand offers a transmission built by a Formula 1 gearbox supplier. The metallurgy is a step above what other brands offer
  • Connecting rod. also made by Pankl
  • Electric starting. KTM has had electric starting on the 450SXF since 2007. You might be thinking, ďSo what? Almost every other 450 has electric starting also?Ē Yes, they do, but KTM knows how to do it without adding 5 pounds of extra weight.
  • look no further than Dakar to see how reliable these motors are. And if you think the 450RR has a different motor, look at the breakdown I did earlier, where I listed all the similarities

The list goes on, go read for yourself
source: https://motocrossactionmag.com/mxa-race-test-the-real-test-of-the-2021-ktm-450sxf/
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 11:51:06 pm by dirtWarp »
 

Offline Hardy de Kock

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2021, 06:45:46 am »
Yeah - Imagine how Husaberg and Husqvarna must feel..... :thumleft:
a Wise man once said absolutely nothing...
 
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Offline Bappas

Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2021, 07:28:29 am »
Wasn t Honda the first Unicam in 2002 ?
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Offline Vintage_Mania

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2021, 07:48:34 am »
Yeah - Imagine how Husaberg and Husqvarna must feel..... :thumleft:

Yip. A prime example of the globalization monster gobbling up unique, bi-spoke and inventive companies and shitting out carbon copies of their single vision.
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2021, 08:21:49 am »
Isn't a modified KLR leading the AMA 450 class?
 

Offline Bappas

Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2021, 08:30:57 am »
And why did they drop the wonderful PDS in favour of a copy of the hateful Japanesse linkage system
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2021, 08:49:14 am »
Dirtwarp, I'll concede that KTM does build some really cutting-edge and reliable off road and D/S bikes.

In my circle of friends, the Yamaha's has been thinned out, and this is because the Japs does not seem that interested to be top of the heap anymore, sad to say.

Yamaha is the only Jp company still producing a 2stroke model in the YZ series. And to that you have to add E-start at huge expense.
 

Offline BuRP

Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2021, 09:26:15 am »
In my circle of friends, the Yamaha's has been thinned out, and this is because....

.... Bidvest is asking ludicrous prices for them?
Sparta MC50, 46 other 50cc's, Garelli Tiger Cross, Jawa 250, Kreidler RS (plated), Kawasaki S1 250/3, S2 350/3, H1 500/3, H2 750/3, Suzuki GT380/3 - 10 year gap - KDX200, BMW 1150GS Adventure, Honda CBR600RR, Honda XR650R 2007 & 2003, Honda CRF230, Yamaha BWS100, BMW F800GS Adventure, Husqvarna 701 Enduro 2018, KTM 790 Adv R 2019, KTM 2020 XC-W TPI 300 Six Days, KTM 2014 500 EXC-W Six Days, KTM 790 Adv R Rally 2020, KTM 890 Adv R Rally 2021
 

Offline mark250gp

Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2021, 09:34:56 am »
KTMís e start on the 2 strokes was highly unreliable until 2014 but it wasnít until 2017 that they stopped making decent dirt bikes altogether. The Mikuni carbed 2017 2 stroke was a disaster. The 2018 TPi was plagued with problems as well. They dropped the Domino throttles in 2017 and fitted their own nonsense, the footpegs turned to cheese and bent at a sniff of a rock. Apparently these new TPiís are sorted but itís taken long enough at the expense of their customers.

It was also about 2017 that KTM SA stopped stocking spares and told the dealers to bring in what they need and keep it themselves. Thatís when everything started to have a 2 week lead time. Some dealers have also sorted that now but it was bad for a while. 
 

Offline voorvel

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2021, 10:03:14 am »
KTMís e start on the 2 strokes was highly unreliable until 2014 but it wasnít until 2017 that they stopped making decent dirt bikes altogether. The Mikuni carbed 2017 2 stroke was a disaster. The 2018 TPi was plagued with problems as well. They dropped the Domino throttles in 2017 and fitted their own nonsense, the footpegs turned to cheese and bent at a sniff of a rock. Apparently these new TPiís are sorted but itís taken long enough at the expense of their customers.

It was also about 2017 that KTM SA stopped stocking spares and told the dealers to bring in what they need and keep it themselves. Thatís when everything started to have a 2 week lead time. Some dealers have also sorted that now but it was bad for a while.
How reliable was the Jap 2stroke e-start and TPI?

Oh that's right, they are still building the same shit since 1990


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Offline Hardy de Kock

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2021, 10:11:23 am »
KTMís e start on the 2 strokes was highly unreliable until 2014 but it wasnít until 2017 that they stopped making decent dirt bikes altogether. The Mikuni carbed 2017 2 stroke was a disaster. The 2018 TPi was plagued with problems as well. They dropped the Domino throttles in 2017 and fitted their own nonsense, the footpegs turned to cheese and bent at a sniff of a rock. Apparently these new TPiís are sorted but itís taken long enough at the expense of their customers.

It was also about 2017 that KTM SA stopped stocking spares and told the dealers to bring in what they need and keep it themselves. Thatís when everything started to have a 2 week lead time. Some dealers have also sorted that now but it was bad for a while.
How reliable was the Jap 2stroke e-start and TPI?

Oh that's right, they are still building the same shit since 1990


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Do you really want to have a reliability debate ?
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Offline Vintage_Mania

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2021, 10:17:50 am »
KTMís e start on the 2 strokes was highly unreliable until 2014 but it wasnít until 2017 that they stopped making decent dirt bikes altogether. The Mikuni carbed 2017 2 stroke was a disaster. The 2018 TPi was plagued with problems as well. They dropped the Domino throttles in 2017 and fitted their own nonsense, the footpegs turned to cheese and bent at a sniff of a rock. Apparently these new TPiís are sorted but itís taken long enough at the expense of their customers.

It was also about 2017 that KTM SA stopped stocking spares and told the dealers to bring in what they need and keep it themselves. Thatís when everything started to have a 2 week lead time. Some dealers have also sorted that now but it was bad for a while.
How reliable was the Jap 2stroke e-start and TPI?

Oh that's right, they are still building the same shit since 1990


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Do you really want to have a reliability debate ?

Agreed. I must say, if I have the choice between a kickstarter on an off-road bike or having to fund the R&D department of a manufacturer for two+ years until they sort their shitty e-starter out I would pick the former. And it goes without saying that extends to air-filters, suspension, etc.

People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day. And doing nothing often leads to the very best kind of something.
 

Offline voorvel

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2021, 10:26:40 am »
Isn't a modified KLR leading the AMA 450 class?
I really hope the CRF wins SX.
Specifically because they are starting to follow KTM's lead and that means faster evolution.

They moved away from that stupid idea that if a tame (low hp) 450 is good enough for the average Jo, it's good enough for most folks.

FFW 10years and the new CRF motor is great everywhere in the rev range. Nobody blames them for copying KTM's power curve, we are just glad that they did.

I suspect that we will see more frequent evolutionary changes from HRC, now that they produce a Works Edition too. (ala the KTM factory edition)

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Offline Odd Dog

Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2021, 10:28:47 am »
KTMís e start on the 2 strokes was highly unreliable until 2014 but it wasnít until 2017 that they stopped making decent dirt bikes altogether. The Mikuni carbed 2017 2 stroke was a disaster. The 2018 TPi was plagued with problems as well. They dropped the Domino throttles in 2017 and fitted their own nonsense, the footpegs turned to cheese and bent at a sniff of a rock. Apparently these new TPiís are sorted but itís taken long enough at the expense of their customers.

It was also about 2017 that KTM SA stopped stocking spares and told the dealers to bring in what they need and keep it themselves. Thatís when everything started to have a 2 week lead time. Some dealers have also sorted that now but it was bad for a while.
How reliable was the Jap 2stroke e-start and TPI?

Oh that's right, they are still building the same shit since 1990


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Heres why and please don't lose any sleep over this revelation.  :imaposer:

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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2021, 10:29:01 am »
KTMís e start on the 2 strokes was highly unreliable until 2014 but it wasnít until 2017 that they stopped making decent dirt bikes altogether. The Mikuni carbed 2017 2 stroke was a disaster. The 2018 TPi was plagued with problems as well. They dropped the Domino throttles in 2017 and fitted their own nonsense, the footpegs turned to cheese and bent at a sniff of a rock. Apparently these new TPiís are sorted but itís taken long enough at the expense of their customers.

It was also about 2017 that KTM SA stopped stocking spares and told the dealers to bring in what they need and keep it themselves. Thatís when everything started to have a 2 week lead time. Some dealers have also sorted that now but it was bad for a while.
How reliable was the Jap 2stroke e-start and TPI?

Oh that's right, they are still building the same shit since 1990


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Look, let's face it, and this is bitter to me to say, but the Japs were right in not developing 2stroke TPI, as it is a dead end street.

About E-start........my XT600 has done 20 years and a 100 000kms on it's original starter system, perhaps that's not reliable enough? :imaposer:
 

Offline voorvel

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2021, 10:29:12 am »
KTMís e start on the 2 strokes was highly unreliable until 2014 but it wasnít until 2017 that they stopped making decent dirt bikes altogether. The Mikuni carbed 2017 2 stroke was a disaster. The 2018 TPi was plagued with problems as well. They dropped the Domino throttles in 2017 and fitted their own nonsense, the footpegs turned to cheese and bent at a sniff of a rock. Apparently these new TPiís are sorted but itís taken long enough at the expense of their customers.

It was also about 2017 that KTM SA stopped stocking spares and told the dealers to bring in what they need and keep it themselves. Thatís when everything started to have a 2 week lead time. Some dealers have also sorted that now but it was bad for a while.
How reliable was the Jap 2stroke e-start and TPI?

Oh that's right, they are still building the same shit since 1990


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Do you really want to have a reliability debate ?
Is this about evolutionary advances or reliability??

If you want something reliable, buy the 15year old thing that's slower, heavier and stears the kakkest.



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« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 10:53:17 am by dirtWarp »
 

Offline voorvel

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2021, 10:47:59 am »


Yeah - Imagine how Husaberg and Husqvarna must feel..... :thumleft:

Yip. A prime example of the globalization monster gobbling up unique, bi-spoke and inventive companies and shitting out carbon copies of their single vision.


Did you proof read this before pressing the submit button?

Do you realize how much tech advances have since been made?
Those companies were dieing, at least ktm prevented their knowledge from following them to the grave.

If you think it's fanboy talk, go and compare the husaberg motor to this sxf and come show me a single part that's still the same.



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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2021, 10:53:35 am »


Yeah - Imagine how Husaberg and Husqvarna must feel..... :thumleft:

Yip. A prime example of the globalization monster gobbling up unique, bi-spoke and inventive companies and shitting out carbon copies of their single vision.


Did you proof read this before pressing the submit button?

Do you realize how much tech advances have since been made?
Those companies were dieing, at least ktm prevented their knowledge from following them to the grave.

If you think it's fanboy talk, go and compare the husaberg motor to this sxf and come show me a single part that's still the same.



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Oh, like the Japanese, copy and improve?
 

Offline voorvel

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2021, 10:54:13 am »
Yes, only 100x faster

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Offline voorvel

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Re: KTM lofsang
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2021, 11:00:41 am »



Look, let's face it, and this is bitter to me to say, but the Japs were right in not developing 2stroke TPI, as it is a dead end street.



I don't follow.
Technology will always have a shelf life and at the moment, i see hard enduro being dominated by TPi bikes.

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