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Author Topic: Is tegnologie altyd so goed en veilig ? (Geen brand bashing op die fabrikaat)  (Read 1725 times)

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Offline El Zeffo

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If only BMW can figure out a DCT will sell them way more bikes.
I used to be called Captain Slow but then i got Zef
Most people say "Be like Elon" or "Be like Bill". I say "Be like Pablo" :biggrin:
 
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Offline BuRP

Is tegnologie altyd so goed en veilig ?


I've had two 790's (still have an 890) and the singlemost best bit of these bikes is the front-only ABS (aka offroad setting)!
That is a well earned compliment coming from me, not-a-fan of these nanny things, "I can do mos better"  ;)
Not so anymore, this modern technology on this bike specifically is awesome  :thumleft:
Never-ever intrusive, in fact I've only felt its presence when it was saving me - it has saved my arse a few times in offroad sections.

I also own a (yeah, a year older/earlier/different) 701 which also has a front-only ABS, my default setting.
I know it also works but only to an extent....  it simply can't stand in the shadow of the 790/890's system, it is that good!

I too have owned a 1150GSA - with ABS indeed - and I ended up disabling this crude forefather-gizmo every time I started it... it because it was almost successful, a few times even, in killing me!

Having absolute confidence in the 7/890's front brake now shows that progress has been made, a LOT in fact - so ja, glo dat tegnologie wat remme aangaan beslis help met ons veiligheid!
Sparta MC50, 46 other 50cc's, Garelli Tiger Cross, Jawa 250, Kreidler RS (plated), Kawasaki S1 250/3, S2 350/3, H1 500/3, H2 750/3, Suzuki GT380/3 - 10 year gap - KDX200, BMW 1150GS Adventure, Honda CBR600RR, Honda XR650R 2007 & 2003, Honda CRF230, Yamaha BWS100, BMW F800GS Adventure, Husqvarna 701 Enduro 2018, KTM 790 Adv R 2019, KTM 2020 XC-W TPI 300 Six Days, KTM 2014 500 EXC-W Six Days, KTM 790 Adv R Rally 2020, KTM 890 Adv R Rally 2021
 
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Offline Fransw

Lyndon Poskitt is n lugvaart ingeneur en bou ook top adv bikes( te koop teen ongeveer R750k). Dis wat hy te se het oor tegnologie:(hy verkies ook carb enjins..)

Simplicity
Since we’ve just discussed carb, this brings me nicely onto the electrics / systems side of the bike and the whole simplicity of the Rally bike. While the base components are the same as most production bikes, stator, regulator rectifier etc, without the fuel injection system, things are much more simple and there is much less wiring, less sensors and components and therefore less to go wrong. There is much less draw on electrical systems and its components on the rally and should you find yourself with a flat battery in the middle of nowhere, you can bump start the bike no problem, I’ve done it!  In Dakar 2017 I drained my battery running heated gear on the FI bike and was left stranded, no way to start the bike without battery, this for me is a big no-no for riding in remote places alone.  Thankfully I was able to get a jump start from another competiors bike on the Dakar but out in the middle of Australia riding remote routes I wouldn’t have been so lucky.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 09:15:11 pm by Fransw »
 

Offline Sylvester

The problem is the manufacturers are all trying to be your mother by looking over you with safety tech. This is partly driven by marketing and the beancounters (the enemy of engineers).
Engineers would give you a simple on/off button for all this crap so you can enjoy the bike the way it is supposed to be enjoyed. But they get forced into developing these stupid ABS modes etc.
Software is only as good as the weakest link. This dude found the weakest link.

I know i make this stuff for a living.

Not just the manufacturers, but politicians too, trying to please the Greta Thunbergs of this world.

Most of the fuel injection technology has been driven by emissions legislation. Without emission legislation, I am sure we would still had a lot more carb adventure bikes around.
I consider myself a pessimist. I am therefore always right...eventually.
 
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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I believe that the real world tells you what is best.

IF we have a poll and ask riders on here if, when and where they were stranded with carburettor issues, there'd be few complaints.

BUT......just amongst the KTM crowd, many can relate to stories of failed fuelpumps, etc.

Carburettors are vastly superior reliability-wise, but they cannot meter fuel accurately enough for "cleaner" emissions.

Similarly, points and condensor are much more reliable than electronic ignition, though electronic ignition in it's basic form is very reliable, but points cannot give you the range of ignition timing control needed

for modern legislation on the environment.

Irony is that an old tech bike may be more unfriendly in it's usage time, but a modern bike takes so much more out of nature in the manufacturing process, and it has a lot more to try and recycle.
 

Offline El Zeffo

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Carburettors are vastly superior reliability-wise, but they cannot meter fuel accurately enough for "cleaner" emissions.

Similarly, points and condensor are much more reliable than electronic ignition, though electronic ignition in it's basic form is very reliable, but points cannot give you the range of ignition timing control needed

I cannot disagree more Uncle 2 stroke. Just because you are mechanically minded and can fix your own carb and points does not mean they are more reliable.
I have not been driving cars and bikes for 20 years and in that time i've never had to fuck with a fuel injection system or an ignition system to make them work. They just work. Not so for carbs and points.
Every bike i had that had problems starting and running had carbs.
I used to be called Captain Slow but then i got Zef
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Offline El Zeffo

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For some reason older people have this romanticized idea that cars and bikes from the 70-80s were better. I am here to tell you they were not. :biggrin:
They were cheaper because they were crap :biggrin:
No aircon, no powersteering, no electric windows, no abs brakes, no traction control, no proper anti rust treatment, no safety equipment. They were basically unsafe shitboxes compared to the cars we build today.
A car from the 80s that ran for 200 000km was properly fucked.  Now most cars have no problem doing 400 000km if maintained properly.
I can remember in the 90s every third car in Mosselbay had a moerse rust hole in it. Thats gone now. Even the surfer cars these days are holding up fine.

The merc from the 80s was the exception. It had all the goodies and was built to last. The rest were just crap.
I used to be called Captain Slow but then i got Zef
Most people say "Be like Elon" or "Be like Bill". I say "Be like Pablo" :biggrin:
 
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Offline XRRX

For some reason older people have this romanticized idea that cars and bikes from the 70-80s were better. I am here to tell you they were not. :biggrin:
They were cheaper because they were crap :biggrin:
No aircon, no powersteering, no electric windows, no abs brakes, no traction control, no proper anti rust treatment, no safety equipment. They were basically unsafe shitboxes compared to the cars we build today.
A car from the 80s that ran for 200 000km was properly fucked.  Now most cars have no problem doing 400 000km if maintained properly.
I can remember in the 90s every third car in Mosselbay had a moerse rust hole in it. Thats gone now. Even the surfer cars these days are holding up fine.

The merc from the 80s was the exception. It had all the goodies and was built to last. The rest were just crap.
Shyte - sounds like you are talking about the T7 Yammy.... :eek7: :peepwall:
Except it is not cheaper... :(
 

Offline 2StrokeDan

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For some reason older people have this romanticized idea that cars and bikes from the 70-80s were better. I am here to tell you they were not. :biggrin:
They were cheaper because they were crap :biggrin:
No aircon, no powersteering, no electric windows, no abs brakes, no traction control, no proper anti rust treatment, no safety equipment. They were basically unsafe shitboxes compared to the cars we build today.
A car from the 80s that ran for 200 000km was properly fucked.  Now most cars have no problem doing 400 000km if maintained properly.
I can remember in the 90s every third car in Mosselbay had a moerse rust hole in it. Thats gone now. Even the surfer cars these days are holding up fine.

The merc from the 80s was the exception. It had all the goodies and was built to last. The rest were just crap.


Relax, I agree with you, and yes, points had much more ongoing maintenance, BUT point is they were more reliable. They could be fixed roadside, if anything went wrong. Not so with modern cars.

Modern cars are becoming so bad that the owner of Donford has told me himself that if he is travelling to Joburg in a new BMW, and he had 4 of his top technicians with him in the car, they'd be stuck with most any breakdown.  You need computer interface with HQ in Germany, etc.....

I repair cars for a living, and I can tell you that modern cars give their fair share of trouble, and perhaps logically so, as they have so many more parts that could act up.

This thread is not about which are better, old or new cars, but about whether all the modern electronics is opening up more ways to give trouble.
 
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Offline El Zeffo

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@2StrokeDan its not the cars that are too hard to work on the problem is most mechanics don't understand what they are looking at. We have it in industry too. Some people can't be trained to understand modern electronics. Its hard. I know. But for me a modern car is pretty simple. Problem is BMW can't afford to hire me to diagnose their faulty cars. Point is they need to hire properly trained electronic techs to diagnose the problems. With electric cars they will be forced to go that route soon.
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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@2StrokeDan its not the cars that are too hard to work on the problem is most mechanics don't understand what they are looking at. We have it in industry too. Some people can't be trained to understand modern electronics. Its hard. I know. But for me a modern car is pretty simple. Problem is BMW can't afford to hire me to diagnose their faulty cars. Point is they need to hire properly trained electronic techs to diagnose the problems. With electric cars they will be forced to go that route soon.


What you are saying is that the problem lies with modern diagnostic equipment?  What is difficult about plugging in a diagnostic tool, reading the fault and replacing the faulty part???

Let's face it, the more complex you go electronically, the less human interface you should have. It should be computer talking to computer. Let your clever electronics tell the parts fitter what to fit.
 

Offline Sabre

For some reason older people have this romanticized idea that cars and bikes from the 70-80s were better. I am here to tell you they were not. :biggrin:
They were cheaper because they were crap :biggrin:
No aircon, no powersteering, no electric windows, no abs brakes, no traction control, no proper anti rust treatment, no safety equipment. They were basically unsafe shitboxes compared to the cars we build today.
A car from the 80s that ran for 200 000km was properly fucked.  Now most cars have no problem doing 400 000km if maintained properly.
I can remember in the 90s every third car in Mosselbay had a moerse rust hole in it. Thats gone now. Even the surfer cars these days are holding up fine.

The merc from the 80s was the exception. It had all the goodies and was built to last. The rest were just crap.

That "...maintained properly." applies to older cars as well. Kept well maintained I have a 1996 LR that did 392k before the oil pump packed up. It is an old fashioned, old technology, straight forward vehicle. That I can fix by the road side without a laptop.

I have a fairly new, modern car with all the bells and whistles. If that car leaves me stranded by the road side, I need to hold thumbs that there is cell phone reception
"Riding a motorcycle is technology's closest equivalent to being a cowboy. Our modern horse has two wheels instead of four, but it's nervous system is appropriately rated in horsepower" Robert Edison Fulton jr. From his book "One Man Caravan"

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Offline Sabre

I see most of the discussions focus on electronic components. No modern mechanical technology issues ? Things like, I don't know, maybe having to renew caliper bolts after a puncture...... ?   :pot: :peepwall: :biggrin:
"Riding a motorcycle is technology's closest equivalent to being a cowboy. Our modern horse has two wheels instead of four, but it's nervous system is appropriately rated in horsepower" Robert Edison Fulton jr. From his book "One Man Caravan"

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BMW 1150 Groot Seun
 

Offline El Zeffo

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@2StrokeDan its not the cars that are too hard to work on the problem is most mechanics don't understand what they are looking at. We have it in industry too. Some people can't be trained to understand modern electronics. Its hard. I know. But for me a modern car is pretty simple. Problem is BMW can't afford to hire me to diagnose their faulty cars. Point is they need to hire properly trained electronic techs to diagnose the problems. With electric cars they will be forced to go that route soon.


What you are saying is that the problem lies with modern diagnostic equipment?  What is difficult about plugging in a diagnostic tool, reading the fault and replacing the faulty part???

Let's face it, the more complex you go electronically, the less human interface you should have. It should be computer talking to computer. Let your clever electronics tell the parts fitter what to fit.

Agreed.
Unfortunately making diagnostic equipment and selling it for a reasonable price is really really hard. The diagnostic equipment most car places have should be seen more as a clue towards the real problem than the actual problem.
I used to be called Captain Slow but then i got Zef
Most people say "Be like Elon" or "Be like Bill". I say "Be like Pablo" :biggrin:
 

Offline El Zeffo

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I see most of the discussions focus on electronic components. No modern mechanical technology issues ? Things like, I don't know, maybe having to renew caliper bolts after a puncture...... ?   :pot: :peepwall: :biggrin:

Thats got nothing to do with Tech. Its a legal issue probably.
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Online m0lt3n

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I see most of the discussions focus on electronic components. No modern mechanical technology issues ? Things like, I don't know, maybe having to renew caliper bolts after a puncture...... ?   :pot: :peepwall: :biggrin:

THis passed by with way to little fuss!



Anyhow, +1 to anti carb crowd from me.

A 1996 LR that could do almost 400k km with unopened engine is the exception.
(I drive a LR, but reckon this is the exception for any LR)
I have colleagues doing 6k km monthly, 300k km on a modern car is not the exception or even newsworthy now.



Can I submit motion that LR be excluded from this discussion



and Ford




and AUDI


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Online m0lt3n

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Just had a thought, why are we discussing cars...

the same applies to bikes. How often do you see XL or XT or XR's with more than 50k km on? Vs current 660XT (I think thats fuel injection?) or even the stressed 690.
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Offline Amsterdam

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I am with @BuRP on this one, those front ABS systems on the newer (KTMs at least) are great.  But I never grab a handful of front brakes in one hit at speed to see if the ABS will save me.  More a case of squeeze and sometimes the ABS comes in. Can't comment on what went wrong to the guy in the Facebook post, too many variables.  I am curious though, how many of you ever test your ABS at speed by grabbing a handful of front brake?  It should work though, shouldn't it.  After all if you brake very hard on a good surface and there is a slippery patch you would expect the ABS to do it's thing without you hitting the deck.
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Offline El Zeffo

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I am with @BuRP on this one, those front ABS systems on the newer (KTMs at least) are great.  But I never grab a handful of front brakes in one hit at speed to see if the ABS will save me.  More a case of squeeze and sometimes the ABS comes in. Can't comment on what went wrong to the guy in the Facebook post, too many variables.  I am curious though, how many of you ever test your ABS at speed by grabbing a handful of front brake?  It should work though, shouldn't it.  After all if you brake very hard on a good surface and there is a slippery patch you would expect the ABS to do it's thing without you hitting the deck.

ABS is designed to help. Not be the end of all skill needed. Software and controls are not prefect. This guy found the bug.

Modern planes can land themselves. But in many of those attempts the pilots take over because the control system messed up.  :thumleft:
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 12:40:49 pm by Captain Zef »
I used to be called Captain Slow but then i got Zef
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Offline El Zeffo

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What you are saying is that the problem lies with modern diagnostic equipment?  What is difficult about plugging in a diagnostic tool, reading the fault and replacing the faulty part???

Let's face it, the more complex you go electronically, the less human interface you should have. It should be computer talking to computer. Let your clever electronics tell the parts fitter what to fit.

You had me thinking about this last night.
Microsoft one of the biggest software companies in the world with great resources can't make Windows bug free. Not even close. Hackers hack it every day. At the same time they have been trying to make auto diagnostics and patching work for 25 years. It still does not work.
If you want to find a way to fix windows you need to speak to the super nerds on forums etc. It takes human intervention.
Saying all of that a car is way more simple but making a diagnostic tool for all the models and makes out there with a great efficiency rate is not possible for our motor companies. The best it can do is drop you a clue.
I see it on our equipment too. Sometimes we have a problem and with all the diagnostics we have we still have to call out the manufacturer to help. They usually fix it in a couple of minutes because they know their equipment.
I used to be called Captain Slow but then i got Zef
Most people say "Be like Elon" or "Be like Bill". I say "Be like Pablo" :biggrin: