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Offline growweblaar

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My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« on: July 22, 2009, 10:37:18 am »
I ride a Dakar and I love my bike. I just sometimes wish it was 30kg lighter ;). Which got me thinking: what would my ideal middleweight dual-sport bike look like? I don't believe any manufacturer produces it, and I wonder why, because it's possible...

I'm thinking DRZ400 but with more packing space and longer highway legs; KTM 640 with longer service intervals, less race-readiness and vibrations; XChallenge with more space, better seat and wind protection.

You get the picture.









So, let's design it. Let's start with user requirements (sorry, I'm in IT ;D):

Goal: Focused middleweight dual-sport bike for lighter riders (also women ;)) or riders that prefer off-road ability in tight/technical situations above absolute long-distance ability or power/top speed. Should still be able to cover 100s of kilometers on the highway in relative comfort (i.e. adventure touring). Luggage and pillion-carrying ability, but pillion not a prime focus.

- Dry weight (absolute maximum): 150kg
- Fuel capacity: +- 16 litres (350km?)
- Power: 45hp?
- Top speed: 150 km/h?
- Suspension: normal front telesopic fork (USD not required?) and rear mono-shock (no tennis ball!)
  -- Something like the DRZ400, with progressive fork springs
- Brakes: Discs all-round, no ABS
- Frame: Strong, but lightweight ;D
  -- NB: proper subframe capable of carrying luggage, plus the occasional pillion. Not required to carry pillion (especially not luggage + pillion) for extended periods.
- Luggage: strong tail-rack, with mounting points for top-box; optional pannier racks & panniers
- Wheels: spoked; 21 inch front, 17 rear
- Final drive: chain
- Protection (standard):
  -- proper alu bash-plate
  -- proper crash bars
  -- proper hand guards
  -- indicators out of the way
- Wind protection: well-designed medium-height screen
- Seat: streamlined, but comfortable (say halfway between Dakar and X-Challenge ;D)
  -- Pillion-capable, but not a prime focus
- Clocks: 2x analog: speed, rpm; fuel guage; odometer
- Other (standard):
  -- Wide offroad footpegs
  -- Under-seat toolset capable of (at least) a tyre-change
  -- Exhaust that doesn't sound like my Dakar's
 
Engine

I'm no engineer or mechanic, but I wondered whether a 500cc engine wouldn't be ideal. Then, is it completely mad to consider a twin? A v-twin 500 (remember those?)...  8). Why? Well, I thought it might make it much smoother on the highway, no? Or do you lose a lot off-road or in the slow stuff, where low rpm torgue is important? Is a twin necessarily bigger and heavier than a single of the same capacity? The KLE500 has a parallel twin - is that what makes it so heavy?

Think about those twin Akras on a 500 v-twin... ;D

Engine configuration: 500c 4-stroke single-cylinder/v-twin with EFI (no carbs, pls!)
Tuning/Service intervals: With tuning halfway between a KTM and a BMW, service intervals could be 7500km
Gearbox: 6 gears (6th is an overdrive for highway use)

Design

The bike should look sexy. Sort of like the DRZ, but less motocrossy. I quite like the styling of the XCountry. Perhaps someone can do us a Photochop ;)


That should keep you busy for a while ;D. Has anyone got one of these in their garage for me?
 

Offline Go Big

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2009, 10:41:19 am »
So you are looking for a modern day XT 500.
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Offline growweblaar

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2009, 10:44:36 am »
So you are looking for a modern day XT 500.

I guess so, yes  :thumleft:

Why does no-one produce 500cc DS bikes anymore?
 

Offline Rolf

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2009, 11:02:42 am »
Take a DR-Z with SSW 470cc Stroker kit that makes just shy of 60Hp. Add a large clarke tank, ProMoto billet tailrack, Lynx headlight and fairing and Corbin wide seat and Bob's your uncle.  :thumleft:

Should make for an awesome adventure bike!  :drif: :drif:
Now:  Royal Enfield Classic Chrome

Previously:  Zongshen 200GY - Aprilia Pegaso 650 iE - Aprilia Caponord 1000
                  Suzuki DRZ 400 SM - Yamaha Virago 535 Bobber - Aprilia Caponord Adventure
 

Offline MrBig

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2009, 11:13:59 am »
The moment you go EFI everything changes.

I think the XR650R is closer to what you need as a base.
Stock it weighs 138kg and produces 45KW
Even if you do the unthinkable and convert to electric start it'll still weigh well under 150kg
Add a 22l tank; some wind protection and voila.
Cheap to run; cheap to farkle.


Dry weight (absolute maximum): 150kg CHECK
- Fuel capacity: +- 16 litres (350km?) CHECK
- Power: 45hp? CHECK
- Top speed: 150 km/h? CHECK
- Suspension: normal front telesopic fork (USD not required?) and rear mono-shock (no tennis ball!) CHECK
  -- Something like the DRZ400, with progressive fork springs
- Brakes: Discs all-round, no ABS CHECK
- Frame: Strong, but lightweight Grin CHECK
  -- NB: proper subframe capable of carrying luggage, plus the occasional pillion. Not required to carry pillion (especially not luggage + pillion) for extended periods. CHECK
- Luggage: strong tail-rack, with mounting points for top-box; optional pannier racks & panniers CHECK
- Wheels: spoked; 21 inch front, 17 rear CHECK
- Final drive: chain CHECK
- Protection (standard):
  -- proper alu bash-plate CHECK
  -- proper crash bars must add but not necessary for the XR
  -- proper hand guards easy  remedy
  -- indicators out of the way CHECK
- Wind protection: well-designed medium-height screen
- Seat: streamlined, but comfortable (say halfway between Dakar and X-Challenge Grin) nothing that cannot be fixed
  -- Pillion-capable, but not a prime focus
- Clocks: 2x analog: speed, rpm; fuel guage; odometer CHECK ex fuel gauge
- Other (standard):
  -- Wide offroad footpegs CHECK
  -- Under-seat toolset capable of (at least) a tyre-change CHECK
  -- Exhaust that doesn't sound like my Dakar's CHECKCHECK
"I know you think you understand what I said, but what you don't understand is what I said is not what I mean."
 

Offline ®©errie

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 11:29:34 am »
The moment you go EFI everything changes.

I think the XR650R is closer to what you need as a base.
Stock it weighs 138kg and produces 45KW
Even if you do the unthinkable and convert to electric start it'll still weigh well under 150kg
Add a 22l tank; some wind protection and voila.
Cheap to run; cheap to farkle.


Dry weight (absolute maximum): 150kg CHECK
- Fuel capacity: +- 16 litres (350km?) CHECK
- Power: 45hp? CHECK
- Top speed: 150 km/h? CHECK
- Suspension: normal front telesopic fork (USD not required?) and rear mono-shock (no tennis ball!) CHECK
  -- Something like the DRZ400, with progressive fork springs
- Brakes: Discs all-round, no ABS CHECK
- Frame: Strong, but lightweight Grin CHECK
  -- NB: proper subframe capable of carrying luggage, plus the occasional pillion. Not required to carry pillion (especially not luggage + pillion) for extended periods. CHECK
- Luggage: strong tail-rack, with mounting points for top-box; optional pannier racks & panniers CHECK
- Wheels: spoked; 21 inch front, 17 rear CHECK
- Final drive: chain CHECK
- Protection (standard):
  -- proper alu bash-plate CHECK
  -- proper crash bars must add but not necessary for the XR
  -- proper hand guards easy  remedy
  -- indicators out of the way CHECK
- Wind protection: well-designed medium-height screen
- Seat: streamlined, but comfortable (say halfway between Dakar and X-Challenge Grin) nothing that cannot be fixed
  -- Pillion-capable, but not a prime focus
- Clocks: 2x analog: speed, rpm; fuel guage; odometer CHECK ex fuel gauge
- Other (standard):
  -- Wide offroad footpegs CHECK
  -- Under-seat toolset capable of (at least) a tyre-change CHECK
  -- Exhaust that doesn't sound like my Dakar's CHECKCHECK



JIP, XR650R is the answer!!!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 11:30:20 am by rcerrie »
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Offline growweblaar

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 11:33:02 am »
Hm, interesting MrBig, rcerrie...

With decent screen and seat, how comfortable is an XR650R on the highway? Does it not shake the botox out of your forehead?

Should I start a "Should I get the XR" thread? ;D
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 11:34:09 am by growweblaar »
 

Offline growweblaar

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 11:34:49 am »
Take a DR-Z with SSW 470cc Stroker kit that makes just shy of 60Hp. Add a large clarke tank, ProMoto billet tailrack, Lynx headlight and fairing and Corbin wide seat and Bob's your uncle.  :thumleft:

Should make for an awesome adventure bike!  :drif: :drif:

Sounds awesome! How much will all of that cost?
 

Offline Rolf

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 11:45:13 am »
Take a DR-Z with SSW 470cc Stroker kit that makes just shy of 60Hp. Add a large clarke tank, ProMoto billet tailrack, Lynx headlight and fairing and Corbin wide seat and Bob's your uncle.  :thumleft:

Should make for an awesome adventure bike!  :drif: :drif:

Sounds awesome! How much will all of that cost?

Well a great low km 2nd hand E can be had for around R35k which still leaves you with around R20K to spend before you get to the price of a great XR. Topbox sells the Promoto stuff if I remember correctly and Edgy just got a Clarke tank so they'll be able to provide you with a price. Bus should be able to give you an idea of price for the 440 kit - don't think there is anyone in SA with the 470 Stroker  ???

The XR will be an awesome choice too though  ;D :thumleft:

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Offline MrBig

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 11:47:11 am »
Hm, interesting MrBig, rcerrie...

With decent screen and seat, how comfortable is an XR650R on the highway? Does it not shake the botox out of your forehead?

Should I start a "Should I get the XR" thread? ;D

No way! (ok maybe a little...  >:D )
The XR is very well balanced.. Much less vibey than a lot of 'modern' singles (think KTM640, KLR650)
A thumper will always have to work hard on the open road - but they CAN do it - just don't expect the comfort or smoothness of a twin.

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shark_za

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 11:57:37 am »
I'd say there are no 500 bikes because a 650 motor is about the same size.
 

Offline Herms

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2009, 12:06:31 pm »
When you pay R6k for riding pants......you are missing the point
 

Offline Go Big

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 12:06:50 pm »
But runs under mechanicaly higher stresses :peepwall:
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Offline mtbbiker

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 12:21:42 pm »
Why do want a 17inch rear wheel (Have changed a tube on one) The 18 inch on a DRZ makes it much easier to change a tube (Or maybe we should go tubeless???) ;D
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Offline growweblaar

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 12:28:19 pm »
Yep, mtb, I think maybe you're right: 18in rear :thumleft:


Herms, that Rally Twin thing is AWESOME :o :o. I want one now! It's a 500cc twin :hello2:. With Ohlins suspension, KTM hubs and Excel rims. Wooooooooooooo! :headbang:



Some extracts:

Then it started growing in us. A twin-cylinder dirt bike. Something with enough power to do anything the XL600 would do, but with top notch suspension, no vibration, roomier ergonomics. And it had to be immensely durable and reliable, just like a full on enduro bike.

...

One day in the early summer of 2000, we were testing the Rally Twin at the local MX track. We had the bike wired up with strain-gages feeding an 8 channel data recorder, so we could calculate the stress on the frame during extreme g-outs and bottom out/case-out conditions. We brought the XT350 along as a comparison, since it is pretty versatile as a dual sport, and a relatively light, flickable bike on the track as far as dual sports go. We were pleasantly surprised to see the Rally Twin absolutely trounce the XT350 in every possible situation. It jumped better, it was faster on every part of the track, inspiring confidence when the XT inspired fear. In fact, it handled some sections of the track better than my KTM 550. We were even more impressed to find we could keep up with the MX bikes, unless they had numbers on them. Not your average dual sport!

...

Sales: Currently our hand built Rally Twins are the only two in the world.

We are considering a small production run of ten or so Rally Twins. We are estimating the MSRP would be $68,000 with a lead time of about 12 months. If you'd like your name put on the list, just drop us a line.


 :eek7:
 

Offline RedWolf

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 12:50:17 pm »
Take a DR-Z with SSW 470cc Stroker kit that makes just shy of 60Hp. Add a large clarke tank, ProMoto billet tailrack, Lynx headlight and fairing and Corbin wide seat and Bob's your uncle.  :thumleft:

Should make for an awesome adventure bike!  :drif: :drif:

Sounds awesome! How much will all of that cost?

Well a great low km 2nd hand E can be had for around R35k which still leaves you with around R20K to spend before you get to the price of a great XR. Topbox sells the Promoto stuff if I remember correctly and Edgy just got a Clarke tank so they'll be able to provide you with a price. Bus should be able to give you an idea of price for the 440 kit - don't think there is anyone in SA with the 470 Stroker  ???


The XR will be an awesome choice too though  ;D :thumleft:


Buy my XR for R42500, only R7500 more than a good E model DRZ
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Offline RedWolf

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 12:52:17 pm »
Hm, interesting MrBig, rcerrie...

With decent screen and seat, how comfortable is an XR650R on the highway? Does it not shake the botox out of your forehead?

Should I start a "Should I get the XR" thread? ;D

I commuted with mine for a month (260km per day) and all went well. No real head shake, but can doe with a better seat. I only changed the sprockets from 14/48 to 15/45, but is is back on 14/48.... >:D
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Offline growweblaar

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 01:01:11 pm »
What's the diff between the XR650R and the L?

Also, does the R have a proper subframe for carrying stuff?
 

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 01:11:38 pm »

Quote
What's the diff between the XR650R and the L?

The L was only made between 93 and 97 so quite old
It's 10kg heavier than the current R which is mainly due to the electric starter and battery.
The suspension is more like the XR600 (43mm vs 46mm shock, less travel; on the rear it's almost 30mm difference)


Quote
Also, does the R have a proper subframe for carrying stuff?

Yes - there's plenty options available for rear racks and the like
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Offline letsgofishing

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Re: My ideal middleweight DS bike ("DRZ500"?)
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2009, 02:34:02 pm »
The moment you go EFI everything changes.

I think the XR650R is closer to what you need as a base.
Stock it weighs 138kg and produces 45KW
Even if you do the unthinkable and convert to electric start it'll still weigh well under 150kg
Add a 22l tank; some wind protection and voila.
Cheap to run; cheap to farkle.


Dry weight (absolute maximum): 150kg CHECK
- Fuel capacity: +- 16 litres (350km?) CHECK
- Power: 45hp? CHECK
- Top speed: 150 km/h? CHECK
- Suspension: normal front telesopic fork (USD not required?) and rear mono-shock (no tennis ball!) CHECK
  -- Something like the DRZ400, with progressive fork springs
- Brakes: Discs all-round, no ABS CHECK
- Frame: Strong, but lightweight Grin CHECK
  -- NB: proper subframe capable of carrying luggage, plus the occasional pillion. Not required to carry pillion (especially not luggage + pillion) for extended periods. CHECK
- Luggage: strong tail-rack, with mounting points for top-box; optional pannier racks & panniers CHECK
- Wheels: spoked; 21 inch front, 17 rear CHECK
- Final drive: chain CHECK
- Protection (standard):
  -- proper alu bash-plate CHECK
  -- proper crash bars must add but not necessary for the XR
  -- proper hand guards easy  remedy
  -- indicators out of the way CHECK
- Wind protection: well-designed medium-height screen
- Seat: streamlined, but comfortable (say halfway between Dakar and X-Challenge Grin) nothing that cannot be fixed
  -- Pillion-capable, but not a prime focus
- Clocks: 2x analog: speed, rpm; fuel guage; odometer CHECK ex fuel gauge
- Other (standard):
  -- Wide offroad footpegs CHECK
  -- Under-seat toolset capable of (at least) a tyre-change CHECK
  -- Exhaust that doesn't sound like my Dakar's CHECKCHECK


Is that rear wheel HP - I thought it put out more than that?
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