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Author Topic: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added  (Read 3616 times)

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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2009, 11:01:58 am »
Thats what I was trying to say yesterday.

Get Runner's barrel, bore and plate. Buy 94.5 piston kit.

Et voila!!!

Can just use mine?

Oh also after chatting with LeCap yesterday he rekons the power dif must be from the hotcams, also the engine hasnt been gas flowed nor the head ported after the piston change  ???

Ya, if its at 420 now...

Just make sure there isnt a bored steel liner put in there. If so, throw away, or use as door stopper...

there isnt an sleeve btw ^.^
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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2009, 11:07:30 am »
Oh another thing.

Since my crank is farked what aftermarket crank would you recommend, keep in mind that I might go with the 440
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Offline Freez

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Re: Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2009, 11:13:58 am »
Just some info.

I build race bikes and quads for a living and gasflowing the DRZ or LTR 400 head is a waist of time. If you get a proper done job, you are lucky to gain 1HP, if that. Price wise, not worth it.

I also use special engine simulation software to predict engine power delivery and so forth and the stock valve sizes on this head is fine for even a 450cc motor, so don't bother going bigger valves either.

The Hotcams do work and it adds about 2 to 3 HP at the top end.

If the DRZ shares the same type of exhaust design as the LTR400 quad bike, then a good full exhaust system also adds a nice gain. Header pipe give extra power at the top end of the RPM range.

Make sure the fuel delivery is done right and it should be a good runner.
 

Offline Freez

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Re: Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2009, 11:15:45 am »
Hotrods make two cranks for this bike. The stock replacement unit and a 5mm stroker.

Note that you need a special piston to run with the stroker crank. It is a 92mm bore piston.

You cannot combine a stroker crank and the Athena kit on this motor.
 

Offline N[]vA

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Re: Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2009, 11:24:20 am »
Kelw thanks for that.

Stroker kit isnt on the cards as such atm and im not looking to have a "race" bike as such.

the bike has a full RC2 Yoshi pipe on
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Offline Fourie-kop

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Re: Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2009, 11:26:31 am »
Thats what I was trying to say yesterday.

Get Runner's barrel, bore and plate. Buy 94.5 piston kit.

Et voila!!!

Can just use mine?

Oh also after chatting with LeCap yesterday he rekons the power dif must be from the hotcams, also the engine hasnt been gas flowed nor the head ported after the piston change  ???

Ya, if its at 420 now...

Just make sure there isnt a bored steel liner put in there. If so, throw away, or use as door stopper...

Julle twee gaan soos kinder aan... Bus is sy bike ook blou of stry julle nog daar oor ook :pot:
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Offline sidetrack

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Re: Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2009, 12:41:17 pm »


You cannot combine a stroker crank and the Athena kit on this motor.

Sure you can with a spacer which gives you a 470 cc ?
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Offline lecap

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Re: Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2009, 12:54:38 pm »
Facts:

When I started the engine for the first time it was mechanically VERY noisy to the point that I switched it off immediately and asked both Nivea (owner) and Newguy (owner of another DRZ) for advice. This was immediately after the oil leak and highsider and the following repair.
Another mechanic who saw and heard the bike before the leak & fall confirmed that it was already worryingly noisy then.

The engine leaked only about one third of its oil through the damaged shaft seal. I drained about 1100ml of oil from the oil tank and sump. With some oil still being present in the tank I rate it as highly unlikely that the engine ran without oil pressure when the leak occurred.

I filled the engine with Castrol ActEvo 10W40 (as specified by Suzuki). Besides that I topped up the radiator (water level low) and adjusted the valve clearances (all valves at minimum or slightly below).

Nivea then collected the bike. The engine lost power and seized a few kilometres down the road.

Damages:
The engine would not turn over. I tried to turn or wiggle the crank towards OT to disassemble the head by using a socket and T-bar on the flywheel. It was impossible to turn the crank at all.

On disassembly I found the following:
The barrel is a  92mm oversize bore OEM Suzuki barrel.
The piston shows seizing on the skirt, corresponding damage can be seen on the barrel. The piston crown is undamaged, rings are free, IMHO the seizing piston was the source of the excessive engine noise but not the primary reason for the engine seizing up.
The barrel pulled off the piston without any problems.
The conrod does not turn on the crank pin. The crank stands at or near bottom dead centre with the conrod seized solid. And I mean SOLID  :-\

Various piston kits: 400, 416 (420), 440, 450. Tigers, lions and bears, oh my!

Wiseco produces the following OS pistons for the DRZ:
(Standard bore is 90mm, they do a few 90mm pistons too)

92mm 12:1 and 92mm 13.5 :1 part no. 4713- and 4714M09200 bringing the engine to 416cc

94.5mm 12:1 and 94.5mm 13.5 :1 part no. 4795- and 4796M09450 bringing the engine to 440cc

The 450cc kit is NOT a Wiseco but a Wössner 95.5mm piston 8563D550 (12:1) or 8567D550 (13.5:1)
Wössner also does a +4mm 440cc kit with a 12:1 compression ratio.

So how the hell can someone build what he thinks is a 450cc engine and by mistake fit a Wiseco piston instead of a Wössner ??? My six year old nephew can figure out the difference by looking at the boxes.
Who build that engine?
???

Repair options:

The crank is shot and needs rebuilding. Not negotiable.

Top end options:
Go 400cc. Athena kit. Good value and they seem to last at least like the OEM ones. I can have the Athena kit by tomorrow.
Go 420 (yes, 416, sorry!) again. Get barrel fixed. This is for sure the healthiest of the big bore conversions leaving a healthy wall thickness of 3mm on the bottom of the barrel.
Go 440. Now you put a 94.5mm bore into a 98mm outer dia. barrel skirt. IMHO not the way to build a durable engine. Racer yes. An 1.75mm wall barrel skirt will not be stiffness world champion.
I expected these OS bore kits to go into modified barrels. Nope! :o
Wössner 450cc. Insane. IMHO if not fitted into a reinforced barrel.

Comment:

I agree with some remarks earlier to the point that the displacement increase is secondary to make the bike run lekker, faster, bester. The very nice Yoshi pipe, the open air box and proper jetting made this bike go well, not a rather pathetic increase in displacement of 18cc or so.
My recommendation therefore is to go the way that promises greatest durability. Athena 400cc or Wiseco 4713M09200 (92mm).
I would stay away from the 13.5:1 compression ratio pistons as they IMHO should be run with high octane fuel of 98+ oct. not the normal Caltex soup from the petrol station.


Now if we can please have the following poll options:

398 OEM, 398 Athena, 398 12:1 Wössner, 439 (+4) 12:1 Wössner, 450 (+5.5) 12:1 Wössner, 398 13.5:1 Wössner, 450 (+5.5) 13.5:1 Wössner and the whole Wiseco zoo, low & high compression, +2mm, +4.5mm or standard.

I'll still vote standard.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 01:03:33 pm by lecap »
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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2009, 01:16:28 pm »
what is the whole zoo? and what is the end effect or diff between the high and lower compressions?
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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2009, 01:17:39 pm »
voted 439 (+4) 12:1 Wössner, though need to understand the compression first
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Offline lecap

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2009, 01:28:28 pm »
The zoo:

   Part Number   Price    Boresize   OverSize   Attributes
   4713M09000    $184.01   90.00mm    STD    
Compression Ratio - Actual:
   12.2:1
Displacement:
   398cc

   4714M09000    $192.93   90.00mm    STD    
Compression Ratio - Actual:
   13.5:1

Displacement:
   398cc

Notes:
   Cylinder deglazing required

   4713M09200    $202.40   92.00mm    2.00mm    
Compression Ratio - Actual:
   12.2:1
Displacement:
   416cc

   4714M09200    $212.23   92.00mm    2.00mm    
Compression Ratio - Actual:
   13.5:1

Displacement:
   416cc

   4795M09450    $219.00   94.50mm    4.50mm    
Compression Ratio - Actual:
   12.5:1
Displacement:
   440cc
Skirt Coating:
   Moly

   4796M09450    $225.58   94.50mm    4.50mm    
Compression Ratio - Actual:
   13.5:1
Displacement:
   440cc
Skirt Coating:
   Moly
Notes:
   Sleeve or Big Bore Cylinder Required

                    
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Offline lecap

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2009, 01:30:44 pm »
More compresion = more power.
More compression needs higher octane fuel.

And who's got he 440cc kit in a standard barrel? :evil6:
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Offline lecap

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2009, 01:35:09 pm »
Oh, and before I forget you can also get 91mm and 92mm ProxX "cheapos". They actually also list two std. size pistons but with 87mm nominal dia. wonder how that's supposed to work ???
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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2009, 01:53:56 pm »
Yea no at this point I think its going to be either one of the three, 400, 420, 440.

so unless im wrong here the 440 could be done using my barrel, having it sent to jhb, bored and plated and getting a piston kit?
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Offline lecap

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2009, 02:06:28 pm »
They can also fix your barrel to take the +2mm piston again me thinks.
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Offline Snafu

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2009, 02:25:28 pm »
So get the moela figures to the options and decide what will fit the budget, easy :)
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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #76 on: November 05, 2009, 02:31:34 pm »
The Athena 440 comes with a Wossner piston if I remember correctly (Austrian I think), you get a brand new barrel with it which has larger water jackets, new gaskets (choose between one or three base gaskets) and offcourse the piston and rings. I was very happy with it but agree the extra 40 cc is not worth it power wise. No reliablity issues and I always used Castrol Actevo 10W40 changed at 3000 km intervals.
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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2009, 02:36:24 pm »
The Athena 440 comes with a Wossner piston if I remember correctly (Austrian I think), you get a brand new barrel with it which has larger water jackets, new gaskets (choose between one or three base gaskets) and offcourse the piston and rings. I was very happy with it but agree the extra 40 cc is not worth it power wise. No reliablity issues and I always used Castrol Actevo 10W40 changed at 3000 km intervals.

Intreresting you say it wasnt worth it, so if you could do it again would you stay with the 400? (assuming a lower cost)
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Offline lecap

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #78 on: November 05, 2009, 02:52:22 pm »
The Athena 440 comes with a Wössner piston if I remember correctly (Austrian I think German of course!), you get a brand new barrel with it which has larger water jackets (and a bigger outer diameter skirt I suspect?)...

...

   4795M09450    $219.00   94.50mm    4.50mm    
Compression Ratio - Actual:
   12.5:1
Displacement:
   440cc
Skirt Coating:
   Moly

   4796M09450    $225.58   94.50mm    4.50mm    
Compression Ratio - Actual:
   13.5:1
Displacement:
   440cc
Skirt Coating:
   Moly
Notes:
   Sleeve or Big Bore Cylinder Required

                    

I see the 2mm wall thickness of the barrel skirt with the +4 Wössner as the absolute min., bit dodgy already. The +4.5mm Wiseco in the OEM barrel is bold.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 02:53:04 pm by lecap »
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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2009, 05:46:54 pm »
The Athena 440 comes with a Wossner piston if I remember correctly (Austrian I think), you get a brand new barrel with it which has larger water jackets, new gaskets (choose between one or three base gaskets) and offcourse the piston and rings. I was very happy with it but agree the extra 40 cc is not worth it power wise. No reliablity issues and I always used Castrol Actevo 10W40 changed at 3000 km intervals.

Intreresting you say it wasnt worth it, so if you could do it again would you stay with the 400? (assuming a lower cost)

I went from the CV carb to the FCR first and it was night and day, then the 440 which gave a bit more torque but not really worth the money as a performance upgrade imho. I needed a top end refresh and Runner was able to get the 440 at a good price.
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