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Offline Adventurer

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #80 on: November 05, 2009, 06:18:52 pm »
Bliksem, Lecap's fingers will be so sore from typing he won't be able to repair your motor....
If you can keep your head in the midst of all this confusion, you don't understand the situation!
 

Offline N[]vA

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #81 on: November 05, 2009, 06:47:16 pm »
The Athena 440 comes with a Wossner piston if I remember correctly (Austrian I think), you get a brand new barrel with it which has larger water jackets, new gaskets (choose between one or three base gaskets) and offcourse the piston and rings. I was very happy with it but agree the extra 40 cc is not worth it power wise. No reliablity issues and I always used Castrol Actevo 10W40 changed at 3000 km intervals.

Intreresting you say it wasnt worth it, so if you could do it again would you stay with the 400? (assuming a lower cost)

I went from the CV carb to the FCR first and it was night and day, then the 440 which gave a bit more torque but not really worth the money as a performance upgrade imho. I needed a top end refresh and Runner was able to get the 440 at a good price.

kewl well as it is atm it has a FCR carb, hot cams, full RC2 Yohi pipe so i guess which ever I end up with wont make that much of a diff either way.
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Offline bonova

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #82 on: November 05, 2009, 08:37:21 pm »
this stuff is way over my head- i'm refraining to vote  :D
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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #83 on: November 05, 2009, 08:38:00 pm »
this stuff is way over my head- i'm refraining to vote  :D

lol I feel your pain man
So much of win it hurts! ^.^


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Offline wrench

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2009, 09:02:45 pm »
Personally I would be more concerned why the crank expired twice in this bikes lifetime, rather than deciding on what size to make it. There are other means of making the bike faster and more torqueky.
 

Offline N[]vA

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2009, 09:06:53 pm »
Personally I would be more concerned why the crank expired twice in this bikes lifetime, rather than deciding on what size to make it. There are other means of making the bike faster and more torqueky.

hurmf good point, what could cause that?
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Offline wrench

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2009, 09:31:54 pm »
Personally I would be more concerned why the crank expired twice in this bikes lifetime, rather than deciding on what size to make it. There are other means of making the bike faster and more torqueky.

hurmf good point, what could cause that?

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Offline Freez

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2009, 06:42:01 am »
A few things.

If anyone did a bit of research into this motor, you would find that the crank and rod is a weak point once you run oversize pistons. So it might be a good this to stop trying to repair the stock crank and rod.

Besides, each time you split a crank small alignment problems creep in and you can also affect the cranks balance. Also, how much does it cost to split the crank and install a full set of bearings and a new rod? Now I am not talking about some guy using a few backyard tools to do this and reusing some of the parts he thinks are still good. I am talking about having it done professionally and rebalancing the crank and replace all the bearings in one go. By the time you have done this, with a new rod, full set of bearings and so forth, you might as well spend a bit extra and get yourself a fully assembled aftermarket crank. Most of the aftermarket cranks are reinforced and able to handle the big bore kits much better than the stock setup would.

Guys this is engine upgrade 101 stuff. If you increase engine size you need to ensure that the crank and rod can handle it.

Another thing. ProX " cheapies "

There is one major factory that manufactures most of the top Japanese name bike pistons. This factory manufacture more than just what the factories orders and the excess pistons that are left goes into a box with a different name on it.... ProX. So in fact, you get OEM quality, if not the exact same thing you would get from your Suzuki dealer, but at a cheaper price.

Then yes, I agree with Wrench and I know what he is implying. When I also talked about this “belief” some have in other topics my head was bitten off, so now it's a matter of, "if they don’t want to listen, they must feel".
 

Offline Rolf

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2009, 07:36:19 am »
Personally I would be more concerned why the crank expired twice in this bikes lifetime, rather than deciding on what size to make it. There are other means of making the bike faster and more torqueky.

hurmf good point, what could cause that?

mmm.. the oil, the oil, the fucking oil.....  ::)

If I have time later today I'll find you the related busted DRZ threads.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2009, 07:37:04 am by Vilaishima »
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                  Suzuki DRZ 400 SM - Yamaha Virago 535 Bobber - Aprilia Caponord Adventure
 

Offline wrench

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2009, 07:43:15 am »
Personally I would be more concerned why the crank expired twice in this bikes lifetime, rather than deciding on what size to make it. There are other means of making the bike faster and more torqueky.

hurmf good point, what could cause that?

mmm.. the oil, the oil, the fucking oil.....  ::)



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Offline wrench

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2009, 08:22:10 am »
Okay here goes so lynch me if you want. IMO any roller bearing crank should not be on full synthetic oils.
What happens is the needles on the big end does not roll/turn but slides, because the synthetic oil is so
slippery. Continuous  sliding of the needles and it eventually ends up with too much clearance and failure
is inevitable. This problem is more common on short stoke high rpm motors and the DRZ revs to 10 000 rpm.
Again guys these are my personal findings over the years and have made  substantial turnover because
of incorrect selection of oil.
 

Offline bradleys

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2009, 08:39:15 am »
Mmmmmm ,interestingWrench I run all my bikes on castrol actevo and had no problems,my beta 525 takes a good hiding on the desert run each year,open her flat out forat least 90kms across the desert pan,she has done 4 desert runs,I change the oil every 1500km at least and add a little everon to the motor,also to the ktm 640motor,I ride my bikes as if I stole it but maintain it properly.Hopefully Jan will get his bike back soon  and ifLecap has done it he wont have no problems, he is a too good motor cycle technition... 8)
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Offline lecap

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2009, 08:54:53 am »
Okay here goes so lynch me if you want. IMO any roller bearing crank should not be on full synthetic oils.
What happens is the needles on the big end does not roll/turn but slides, because the synthetic oil is so
slippery. Continuous  sliding of the needles and it eventually ends up with too much clearance and failure
is inevitable. This problem is more common on short stoke high rpm motors and the DRZ revs to 10 000 rpm.
Again guys these are my personal findings over the years and have made  substantial turnover because
of incorrect selection of oil.

Did my CB250RS idle and flat out only for 36000km running on fully synthetic 10W50 Klüber 4T. Rides included plenty of passes in the Alps done at whatever speed engine performance & grip would allow as well as "quick" 650km freeway trips from Munich to Osnabrück & back flat out besides pulling into petrol stations. Redline at 10500rpm.
Never any problems.

BTW: It's a common misbelief that synthetic oil is oilier / more slippery than mineral.
It's thinner when cold and thicker when hot.

Looking at bearing pressures between needles and races in a big end  bearing I don't think any oil will cause anything to stop rotating and start slipping.
A serious problem in fast rotating roller bearing cranks is centrifugal forces which force the oil away from the inner race (crank pin)and towards the outer race (conrod big end bore). If the oil supply is too slow or if the conrod has too much axial play the crankpin surface overheats and the big end bearing expires.
Means one of the easiest and most promising fixes for an engine suffering from crank problems would be to increase the volume of oil going to the big end bearing whilst making sure the axial play of the conrod is as little as possible (specs!)
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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2009, 09:32:38 am »
A few things.

If anyone did a bit of research into this motor, you would find that the crank and rod is a weak point once you run oversize pistons. So it might be a good this to stop trying to repair the stock crank and rod.

Besides, each time you split a crank small alignment problems creep in and you can also affect the cranks balance. Also, how much does it cost to split the crank and install a full set of bearings and a new rod? Now I am not talking about some guy using a few backyard tools to do this and reusing some of the parts he thinks are still good. I am talking about having it done professionally and rebalancing the crank and replace all the bearings in one go. By the time you have done this, with a new rod, full set of bearings and so forth, you might as well spend a bit extra and get yourself a fully assembled aftermarket crank. Most of the aftermarket cranks are reinforced and able to handle the big bore kits much better than the stock setup would.

Guys this is engine upgrade 101 stuff. If you increase engine size you need to ensure that the crank and rod can handle it.

Another thing. ProX " cheapies "

There is one major factory that manufactures most of the top Japanese name bike pistons. This factory manufacture more than just what the factories orders and the excess pistons that are left goes into a box with a different name on it.... ProX. So in fact, you get OEM quality, if not the exact same thing you would get from your Suzuki dealer, but at a cheaper price.

Then yes, I agree with Wrench and I know what he is implying. When I also talked about this “belief” some have in other topics my head was bitten off, so now it's a matter of, "if they don’t want to listen, they must feel".

Agreed, I will be going with aan aftermarket one, the whole thing rather than reusing stuff and LeCap is no backyards mech  :deal:

Thanks again for you input man  :thumleft:

Okay here goes so lynch me if you want. IMO any roller bearing crank should not be on full synthetic oils.
What happens is the needles on the big end does not roll/turn but slides, because the synthetic oil is so
slippery. Continuous  sliding of the needles and it eventually ends up with too much clearance and failure
is inevitable. This problem is more common on short stoke high rpm motors and the DRZ revs to 10 000 rpm.
Again guys these are my personal findings over the years and have made  substantial turnover because
of incorrect selection of oil.

 ???

Okay here goes so lynch me if you want. IMO any roller bearing crank should not be on full synthetic oils.
What happens is the needles on the big end does not roll/turn but slides, because the synthetic oil is so
slippery. Continuous  sliding of the needles and it eventually ends up with too much clearance and failure
is inevitable. This problem is more common on short stoke high rpm motors and the DRZ revs to 10 000 rpm.
Again guys these are my personal findings over the years and have made  substantial turnover because
of incorrect selection of oil.
BTW: It's a common misbelief that synthetic oil is oilier / more slippery than mineral.
It's thinner when cold and thicker when hot.

Looking at bearing pressures between needles and races in a big end  bearing I don't think any oil will cause anything to stop rotating and start slipping.
A serious problem in fast rotating roller bearing cranks is centrifugal forces which force the oil away from the inner race (crank pin)and towards the outer race (conrod big end bore). If the oil supply is too slow or if the conrod has too much axial play the crankpin surface overheats and the big end bearing expires.
Means one of the easiest and most promising fixes for an engine suffering from crank problems would be to increase the volume of oil going to the big end bearing whilst making sure the axial play of the conrod is as little as possible (specs!)


 ??? ??? ???

I just dont know enough about what you  guys are talking about to actualy have an oppinion
So much of win it hurts! ^.^


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Offline letsgofishing

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2009, 01:58:24 pm »
When I replaced my piston, I was advised NOT to go with the 13.5:1.
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Offline Andy660

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2009, 07:47:00 pm »
This has been a very interesting read , So for R11 000 bux , the original owner got a 420  or the second owner F__-d up the motor and made it a 420 ???

Just curious.

But , I think Freeze has a point about all the crank re-builds.
So whats the chances of a new crank with and uprated rod and a Wesieco piston , thats the only way that  , that motor is going to be N[]vA proof !!!!

And Le Cap , hats off for all the research that you did on the part no.# and replacement kits.
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Offline lecap

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #96 on: November 09, 2009, 01:06:13 am »
When I replaced my piston, I was advised NOT to go with the 13.5:1.


Don't know if I said it before and don't want to say anything wrong / stand on someones toes as I am not a racing or performance engine builder just a wannabe (never qualified ;D) engineer & not so wannabe mechanic.
IMHO 13.5:1 is racing engine compression ratio. If you run something like that on the 95 oct. soup from Caltex & Co on the next corner you are asking for kark. 12:1 is alot already even for a nicely shaped four valve and I would only run a max. of 12:1 (or probably go down to 11:1 - 11.5:1) on an engine that's meant to last and meant to run on petrol not mixed from ingredients bought from the chemist :biggrin:  - but then what the fark do I know.
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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #97 on: November 09, 2009, 09:00:43 am »
Totaly agree witht he 400, piston and crank :D

Justa  matter of time now
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Offline N[]vA

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2009, 11:28:38 am »
Oki so time for an update :D

as is currently the cylinder kit (Athena 400) and piston have arrived  :mwink: got word from Jurgen today that the crankshaft is repairable and we are not just waiting on bearings and the con rod kit after which the crank will be sent off to be fixed and should be up and running soonish   :thumleft:

there after its going to be a whole lot of  :ricky: :ricky: :ricky: :ricky: :ricky: :ricky: :ricky: :ricky: :ricky: :ricky:

 ;D
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Offline letsgofishing

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Re: Updated - Busted ass drz - poll added
« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2009, 05:04:19 pm »
 ;D ;D ;D
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