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Offline HTFU

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2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« on: October 11, 2010, 04:36:44 pm »
I went on a ride to the Cederberg this weekend and kept on having this problem with my gears/clutch. As I switch from 1st to 2nd it would increase in revs in 2nd (after clutch has engaged the gear), but would then just slip out of gear into neutral. It also happened in higher gears at times, where it would just rev freely for a second or two and then grab a gear again after the revs came down. I'm guessing there's something wrong with the clutch, maybe someone else can diagnose the problem. The bike has done 30,000km.

Has anyone experienced this problem? Or can anyone guess what could be wrong?
 

Offline zagser

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2010, 07:45:53 am »
Might be the result of lazy shifting.
Happened to me once or twice when I just got the bike.

Move the gear lever one or two notches down, or make sure you shift all the way up.

Hope this is your problem, otherwise it might get expensive...
 

Online Kamanya

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2010, 10:27:46 am »
Describe your issue a bit more.

I am not sure about your description, do you grab a gear, let the clutch out and it revs up before it snags the gear. Or, if while riding in a gear (just after changing) it spins up unexpectedly when you accelerate and then suddenly grabs again? Does it whack with an almighty crack back into gear or just catch up as though the plates are slipping less?
Does it do this under acceleration or deceleration or under no load?

Also, give a bit more info on the history;

Have you had it since new?
Any issues before?
When did you last inspect the clutches hydraulic system/change the oil?
What is your normal use of the clutch - clutch-less shifting?

My guess, is it's not the clutch plates. Places of suspicion;

Clutch nut holding the clutch basket on might be loose. Happens quite a lot. Have to take the pressure cap off to check.

Shifting pins on the shift arresting coupler come loose. (pics from Pyndon on Advrider)




Clutch booster dogs/ramps worn. (not expensive or difficult to change)

Shift forks bent or shift rollers missing. (expensive and difficult to change)

Gear Selector Barrel walls cracked or broken. (expensive and difficult to change)

Pull your sump plug out and take a photo of it and what it has trapped. That might give you more clues. (need to change your oil to do this)

So, all that should get you nervous. :biggrin:
 
I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

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Offline HTFU

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2010, 11:09:15 am »
I grab a gear, it selects, I let the clutch out, increase revs to accelarate and then it jumps out of gear to neutral. Or when going in a higher gear (3rd or 4th), gear engaged, clutch out, i would open throttle, revs increase and then it'll just rev freely (as if i've pulled the clutch in) and then as the revs come down (after closing throttle) it would re-engage the gear (with a clunk) and then it goes on as if nothing is wrong. No gradual clutch gripping/slipping. It's an on/off effect. What I've also noticed is that the clutch (when lever pulled) makes the back wheel spin quite freely (when on the center stand), not sure if that is normal. Also when I engage first gear, from standing still in neutral, as I click the gear lever down into first, it does that with a whack. Not sure if that's normal. I haven't owned a bike before, so I'm quite a rookie on this front. It might be normal.

Have you had it since new? No, bought it 1,500km (2 months) ago.
Any issues before? Yes, the previous owner said he had a problem with the clutch, but there was a spring on the clutch that wasn't working properly - so he replaced it.
When did you last inspect the clutches hydraulic system/change the oil? I only bought the bike 2 months ago, I haven't had it serviced/checked out.
What is your normal use of the clutch - clutch-less shifting? I always use the clutch for shifting.

Is there any place where I can have the bike checked out (where it won't cost me an arm and a few legs (KTM) while ensuring that the service/maintenance is still of a high quality - someone that specializes in KTM servicing)

Thanks for your help!
 

Online Kamanya

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2010, 12:08:09 pm »
I grab a gear, it selects, I let the clutch out, increase revs to accelerate and then it jumps out of gear to neutral. (Only things that I can think of is barrel or forks here)

Or when going in a higher gear (3rd or 4th), gear engaged, clutch out, i would open throttle, revs increase and then it'll just rev freely (as if I’ve pulled the clutch in) and then as the revs come down (after closing throttle) it would re-engage the gear (with a clunk) and then it goes on as if nothing is wrong. No gradual clutch gripping/slipping. It's an on/off effect.  (again barrel/forks but also maybe clutch booster or blocked oil jet)

What is strange is that if all this happened only from one particular gear to another then I'd definitely go with the barrel, but as it happens all over then it might be the shift rollers or bent shift forks.

What I've also noticed is that the clutch (when lever pulled) makes the back wheel spin quite freely (when on the centre stand), not sure if that is normal. Also when I engage first gear, from standing still in neutral, as I click the gear lever down into first, it does that with a whack. Not sure if that's normal. I haven't owned a bike before, so I'm quite a rookie on this front. It might be normal. (All very normal)


Yes, the previous owner said he had a problem with the clutch, but there was a spring on the clutch that wasn't working properly - so he replaced it. (Exactly which spring?)

I only bought the bike 2 months ago, I haven't had it serviced/checked out. (open the clutch reservoir and check you have oil)


Is there any place where I can have the bike checked out (where it won't cost me an arm and a few legs (KTM) while ensuring that the service/maintenance is still of a high quality - someone that specializes in KTM servicing)

Thanks for your help!


Are you mechanically minded? Would you work on your own bike do you have time? There are places to get a workshop manual and there is a shit load of info on the net to help you along.

The definitive Encyclopedia Orangica - The HOW
And if you own an LC8 this should be high in your links file - Orange Crush

If not,

For smaller service type work I'd use others but for big stuff I would take it to KTM. And give them all this info. Yes they are a little more expensive than most but they work a lot on these things and their work comes with a bit of a guarantee.

Worst case, your issue sounds like the barrel or the shifting forks. Probably about R7k's plus worth of work. Most of the cost is the gaskets as the case has to be split and you'll need a full set. Next would be labour and lastly the barrel. (KTM might do a partial warranty goodwill replacement as it was a known issue - going through anyone else and you will not get any help)

There are very few people who have the tools, experience, back-up and regularly go that deep into an LC8.

Are you sure it is a 2006? The barrel was updated after 2005 (or 2004, not sure), it had a weak spot in the channels so the wall would crack off.

Like this... Mine broke after 7k Km's



Crunchy rollers - one was completely missing. This one was on its way;



Sorry about your new bike. They're rockets when they go.

A long shot; the previous owner might help you out? At the very least get as much info from him as you can.

Also, phone up KTM and ask them to fax/email the bikes history to you. Sedik will do this. All bikes have all service and repair history done by them anywhere in the world logged. You just need to give them your VIN number.

Lastly there are a bunch of very knowledgeable guys on the Orange Crush section of ADVrider.com Give them a go, post up your issue. They love this kind of voyeurism and sherlock'ing.

Just know though that the "innanet" is a dangerous place to ask for info or diagnosis'. You can easily go down a path because someone sounds like they know what they are talking about... Like I'm doing here. I could be very wrong in all of the above.

Let us know what happens.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 12:14:57 pm by Kamanya »
I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

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Offline navigator

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 09:46:04 pm »
Kamanya - wasn't there a TB about the under tightening of the clutch basket or sumfing?
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Online Kamanya

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2010, 09:35:28 am »
Kamanya - wasn't there a TB about the under tightening of the clutch basket or sumfing?

Not sure. You could be right.

It happens enough to be a good place to start looking when things go a bit otherwise.
I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

You want to have a stable Picture & Video host?

https://secure.smugmug.com/signup.mg?Coupon=7ovFBQhdrwnZw
 

Offline HTFU

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2010, 03:27:12 pm »
I took the bike in to KTM, Donald took the bike for a ride and he reckons it is the gear selector/rollers that might be causing it. So you were spot-on Kamanya. And yes, it's going to cost me a fortune.
 

Online Kamanya

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2010, 03:35:54 pm »
I took the bike in to KTM, Donald took the bike for a ride and he reckons it is the gear selector/rollers that might be causing it. So you were spot-on Kamanya. And yes, it's going to cost me a fortune.

Sorry to hear that.

What's the estimated ball park cost?

Look on the bright side, once you have it back it will have been through a thorough rebuild and should last you many years of fun.
I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

You want to have a stable Picture & Video host?

https://secure.smugmug.com/signup.mg?Coupon=7ovFBQhdrwnZw
 

Online Kamanya

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2010, 03:40:44 pm »
Oh, and the previous owner sold you a hospital pass.

He must have known something was up.
I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

You want to have a stable Picture & Video host?

https://secure.smugmug.com/signup.mg?Coupon=7ovFBQhdrwnZw
 

Offline spankme

Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2010, 03:48:42 pm »
I agree with donalds diagnosis, when you bought the bike was this already a problem?
 

Offline SandMan

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2010, 04:02:31 pm »
A small hi-jack,

I have a 2004 950, is there any preventative measures against this problem or anything to look out for?
 

Online Kamanya

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2010, 04:32:02 pm »
A small hi-jack,

I have a 2004 950, is there any preventative measures against this problem or anything to look out for?

My opinion is;

The damage is caused by sloppy gear changes in combination with a part of the gearbox, under certain conditions, that is prone to breaking - the wall of the selector barrel.

Specifically, it's when a false neutral happens and it is not caught in time. For a split second just as the revs race around to the limiter, it can slam back into gear. This puts immense strain on the system. The parts that get damaged when this happens are the shift forks, rollers and the barrel walls. False neutrals are found mostly on the LC8's between 3rd & 4th and between 5th & 6th.

Prevention;

•   I find as soon as soon as the chain is not tensioned properly, the gearbox plays up. A loose chain is hard on the whole system.
•   The oil needs a change. I find if the bikes been given a good thrashing towards the service interval, then I can feel the box begging for a refresh. I sometimes change the oil after only 5000k's or sooner if I feel it needs it.
•   Sloppy changes. Not being positive enough.
•   Some oils for me work better than others. Motorex worked, but I now use Caltex sythetic. (this is a very subjective topic and everyone has opinions on it.)




I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

You want to have a stable Picture & Video host?

https://secure.smugmug.com/signup.mg?Coupon=7ovFBQhdrwnZw
 

Offline HTFU

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2010, 04:44:51 pm »
It has to go in for its 30,000km service, so I got a quote for both the fixing and the servicing. They reckon it's going to be R4.2-R4.4k for the service + 1.5hrs to open up to the part where you get to the selector/rollers + 3 or 4hrs for putting it back together + R2k for the shifting roller + R3.6k for the gaskets. That's a total of R12k. BAM!
 

Offline Would I?

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 04:52:17 pm »
F$%k thats expensive!!

I have had a couple of these false shifts..... Is there a way of inspecting without striping all the way down?
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Offline SandMan

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2010, 04:52:35 pm »
A small hi-jack,

I have a 2004 950, is there any preventative measures against this problem or anything to look out for?

My opinion is;

The damage is caused by sloppy gear changes in combination with a part of the gearbox, under certain conditions, that is prone to breaking - the wall of the selector barrel.

Specifically, it's when a false neutral happens and it is not caught in time. For a split second just as the revs race around to the limiter, it can slam back into gear. This puts immense strain on the system. The parts that get damaged when this happens are the shift forks, rollers and the barrel walls. False neutrals are found mostly on the LC8's between 3rd & 4th and between 5th & 6th.

Prevention;

•   I find as soon as soon as the chain is not tensioned properly, the gearbox plays up. A loose chain is hard on the whole system.
•   The oil needs a change. I find if the bikes been given a good thrashing towards the service interval, then I can feel the box begging for a refresh. I sometimes change the oil after only 5000k's or sooner if I feel it needs it.
•   Sloppy changes. Not being positive enough.
•   Some oils for me work better than others. Motorex worked, but I now use Caltex sythetic. (this is a very subjective topic and everyone has opinions on it.)






Cheers, thanks for the input. I have had some false neutrals in the life of my bike but not many.

What u say makes sense, make sure the oil is always good and positive gear changes. I also use Castrol Synthetic and so far found it to be good.
 

Online Kamanya

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2010, 05:04:51 pm »
I have had a couple of these false shifts..... Is there a way of inspecting without striping all the way down?

It's not the false neutrals that kill it. It's the gearbox slamming back into gear that does the damage.

But even then, I reckon it takes quite a few times before this will cause the type of damage being discussed.

No you can't inspect it without opening it.
I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

You want to have a stable Picture & Video host?

https://secure.smugmug.com/signup.mg?Coupon=7ovFBQhdrwnZw
 

Online Kamanya

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2010, 05:07:56 pm »
It has to go in for its 30,000km service, so I got a quote for both the fixing and the servicing. They reckon it's going to be R4.2-R4.4k for the service + 1.5hrs to open up to the part where you get to the selector/rollers + 3 or 4hrs for putting it back together + R2k for the shifting roller + R3.6k for the gaskets. That's a total of R12k. BAM!

That's about right.

You are getting lucky on the labour though. 1.5 to get to where they need to be & 3-4 to get it back together is really good going.

Start stretching your hamstrings and lubing up! That'll teach you to come to the darkside.
I wonder where that gravel road goes? And that, has usually made all the difference. (Apologies to Mr Frost)

You want to have a stable Picture & Video host?

https://secure.smugmug.com/signup.mg?Coupon=7ovFBQhdrwnZw
 

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2010, 06:20:09 pm »
The Amsoil range of oils are absolutely brilliant.  In certain cases customers have even commented on engines running quieter and that gear changes are a lot smoother.

Check out their comparison chart:
http://www.amsoil.com/comparison/motor-oil.aspx
 

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Re: 2006 KTM 950 Adventure Clutch
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2010, 06:25:26 pm »
ouch man - 12k is no joke  :o

and that after having the bike for 2 months is no laughing matter  >:(