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Offline michnus

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« on: January 12, 2011, 05:28:41 pm »
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 11:14:31 pm by michnus »
 

Offline BOER!

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 05:57:16 pm »
My dakar was rebuilt for cosmetic reasons at 34000km.  I bought it at 32000km.

When i removed the waterpump panel for painting, i was informed by my bike mechie the gears have about 50% wear on them, and should be good for another 20 000km.  btw. My mechie is a former BMW workshop manager. He knows his ways around bikes.

So at least Michnus.  I know about the issue.

Thats 1 and counting... :biggrin:
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Offline nemodakar

Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 07:18:43 pm »
Cost involved?

How difficult to do yourself?

Are there any signs to look out for or does the shit just hit the fan.
 

Offline The Purple Turtle

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 07:52:30 pm »
Oops!

Mz Purple's F650CS (same motor as the GS) has done 50k.

So I need to worry Michnus?
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Offline buzzlightyear

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 08:24:03 pm »
From what I've read on WD before, it is definitely a problem needing attention on these bikes with around 40-60k on the clock.
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Offline ChristoffGS

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2011, 11:14:38 pm »
So what are the obvious signs to look out for when the gears needs replacing?  Or is it something you want to fix before there are any signs?
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Offline Jughead

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2011, 12:18:01 am »
So what are the obvious signs to look out for when the gears needs replacing?  Or is it something you want to fix before there are any signs?

There's a red light on the dash that warns you that your motor is overheating and about to go south (as opposed to Michnus and his bike going north!).  >:D

When that light comes on, hit the kill switch asap!!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 12:19:07 am by Jughead »
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Offline alexTH3man

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2011, 12:32:41 am »
So what are the obvious signs to look out for when the gears needs replacing?  Or is it something you want to fix before there are any signs?

There's a red light on the dash that warns you that your motor is overheating and about to go south (as opposed to Michnus and his bike going north!).  >:D

When that light comes on, hit the kill switch asap!!

Oh....  and pray it's not too expensive  :-[
 

Offline michnus

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2011, 06:51:09 am »
There are no warning, the light comes on, your bike pisses water all over you and you are stuck between fucking nowhere.
Boys please post links to other threads where this has happen, I cant,internet is too slow to look up and we need to see the extend of the problem. Also why so little info are available on this. I heard of problems from other okes do not count much post facts please.
My other Dakar will be on 60000km when we hit Nairobi and will have to replace the gears there.
I am just a bit bould over why it is not more common knowledge on these bikes or is it that it is affecting only the later models? Why we only get this now.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 06:59:57 am by michnus »
 

Offline h/hh

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2011, 07:13:41 am »
First time I've heard of this. The worn gears.
My Dakar (2003 model) water pump seals went at 120 000km. Lost some coolent and the over temperature light came on.  Was in Leydenburg at the time and still need to get to TswaniToria.

Found that as long as I kept the bike moving at speed the light went off. The moment  the bike stop moving or driving at slow speed the light came on.  Manage to reach home without trouble.

At 160 000km it popped the rings. Could be that it overheated a bit much that time.

Something to look at when my rebuilt started.
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Offline Rotax650

Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2011, 07:18:21 am »
This issue is not unknown, to the entire f650gs single range.  Exactly why I changed mine preventatively at 45 000km.  Not that difficult to replace, but definately not recommended as a roadside repairjob.  The 2 plastic drivegears was about R100 each.  Mine had no signs of wear, but replaced it anyway. (2002 Dakar)  I would say if your f650gs has done 50 000km +...replace.  
Well, considering replacement every 50 000km, it's not really that must of a weakness on the bike.
 

Offline Jughead

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2011, 07:25:57 am »
I replaced the impeller in a pre-2004 F650 a few weeks ago and the gears had no significant signs of wear.  I would appear to only affect the later models.
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Offline michnus

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2011, 07:50:54 am »
Rotax I could not find any info on F650.com or on FAQ on their site. It does not seem so common. I suspect the later models only now reach higher miles so now it get to be an issue. Also why did the gears plastic change, Rene the Canadian did 150000km on his bike without changing them his bike is a pre 04.
Please also do not confuse seals with gears this is a gear issue my bikes seals are still good.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 07:58:32 am by michnus »
 

Offline Rotax650

Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2011, 07:54:59 am »
For a bush repair (if you have replacement gears) you can lay the bike on it's side, so no need to drain the oil, before removing the clutch sidecover.  (just remove battery first, if lead-acid)  With care, the seals and gaskets can be re-used.  Just a bitch to remove the exhaust and oil return line first.
 

Offline nemodakar

Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2011, 07:59:57 am »
I replaced the impeller in a pre-2004 F650 a few weeks ago and the gears had no significant signs of wear.  I would appear to only affect the later models.
I hope you're referring to old faithful.
 

Offline michnus

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011, 08:03:43 am »
Code: [Select]
For a bush repair (if you have replacement gears) you can lay the bike on it's side, so no need to drain the oil, before removing the clutch sidecover.  (just remove battery first, if lead-acid)  With care, the seals and gaskets can be re-used.  Just a bitch to remove the exhaust and oil return line first.

bush repair is not advisable rather do preventative. I did mine on the beach in Malawi now and the one bolt was rusted tight. Had to get it drilled and tapped at the local boat yard and they did a shitty job.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 08:05:54 am by michnus »
 

Offline Jughead

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011, 08:16:13 am »
I replaced the impeller in a pre-2004 F650 a few weeks ago and the gears had no significant signs of wear.  I would appear to only affect the later models.
I hope you're referring to old faithful.

I am indeed!  :biggrin:
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Offline Jughead

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Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2011, 08:19:09 am »
For a bush repair (if you have replacement gears) you can lay the bike on it's side, so no need to drain the oil, before removing the clutch sidecover.  (just remove battery first, if lead-acid)  With care, the seals and gaskets can be re-used.  Just a bitch to remove the exhaust and oil return line first.

How do you remove the oil return without draining the oil?  If you haven't drained the oil it all pisses out of the return when it is disconnected.
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Offline Grootseun

Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2011, 08:42:26 am »
Did mine at 60k as well. 2003 Dakar

Had weeping coolant for a while (dripped out the weep hole), and when the gears finally gave up, red light came on.

Managed to nurse it home - while riding, pull in the clutch on the downhills so the engine only idles. Make sure you have sufficient airflow (wind speed) onto the radiator to keep the coolant temperature down. without getting to too high speeds

From what i have read on the matter is, that it's the gears mostly that give up. (plastic - only good for about 60k kms)
But when i took the impeller and shaft out, there was visible wear on the shaft from the seals - so in my case it was the seals and the gears that went.

Some of the guys in the states questioned why the gears are plastic? why not have it in some kind of metal such as the oil pump gears?

BUT - I think in the big scheme of things, 60k kms on a single cylinder engine is probably not too bad.



 

Offline lecap

Re: 01-07 F650GS & DAKAR Waterpump gears TAKE NOTE!!
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2011, 09:01:07 am »
I have seen and fixed it a few times, I would say too often for the issue to be a freak incident.

I would say possible contributing factors (explaining why some fail earlier and some not at all) are engine oil quality (type of oil and oil change intervals), tolerances of manufacture & material inhomogenities.

Unfortunately I can not really comment on "When and which year models?". All I can say I do not remember any Funduros eating the water pump gears and I had and was looking after a few of them, some with pretty high mileage.
The gears seem to fail after >50,000km

Since you're basically there when you do the water pump shaft seals and since it increases the amount of money spent only marginally (some R200 for the two gears as far as I can remember) I'd say it is a very good idea to replace the gears together with the water pump shaft and seals. Regardless if the seals started to leak or if you decide to do it as "preventive maintenance" with the 50,000km service.

There will be absolutely no previous warning before the failure. Disassembly and check for wear is not really an option due to the mid sized mission to access the construction site. I also suspect the wear to increase exponentially at some time thanks to the unusual and less than ideal combination of two identical relatively small diameter polyamide gears. Means the gears will look fine for a long time and then fail chop chop.
One steel and one polyamide gear would be much better, with the PA gear being bigger and a transmission ratio ≠ 1, ideally something like 16/17.
Since the spares are cheap and it seems to be a good idea to do the shaft & seals every 50,000 or 60,000km I would not bother about an improvement of the design.
The reason for the gears to be made from PA and identical is both times cost. Failure will not immediately destroy the engine as it would be the case with oil pump drive failure.

And BTW:

BMW sells the water pump shaft as a kit together with the shaft seals for good reason. The seals cause a lot of wear and at the time when the seals fail you should throw away the shaft too.

Whenever you remove the F650 (single) oil return feed to get to the clutch cover and / or water pump do any of the modifications as stylish as you want, from 6cm of washing machine pressure hose & 2 hose clamps via 12mm straight hydraulic coupling to whatever cool contraption you can get made up from stainless steel braided hoses & fittings. This will make fitting the clutch cover MUCH easier. You will not regret it :mwink:

Only the oil out of the sump will trickle out of the oil return feed at the rate at which it leaks through the return feed oil pump. (=Very slowly). I'd say drain the sump, leave the battery alone and work on a paddock stand.
The oil tank will not drain though the return feed as the return feed ends at the top of the tank above the oil level.

And Michnus: KLR water pump seals last 75000km :evil6:
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