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Author Topic: Liquid cooled 1300 GS  (Read 1800 times)

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2011, 09:12:56 am »
Nee man Mof, ek het meer gehou van jou vorige avatar.
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Offline TheBear

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2011, 10:06:04 am »
The Boxer has advantages too: The biggest advantage was suitability for simple and lightweight air cooling.
Now you make it watercooled.
:-\


It is not so much about the configuration of the cylinders (boxer or paralel) but rather about emmission control.  It is not possible to control an air-cooled engine as well as a water cooled engine and the current air cooled engine, which happens to be of boxer configuration, will fail emission standard in Europe from 2014.  Making it water cooled is the way to go to make those emission standards. 

As for the boxer being outdated?  It would seem manufacturers like Porche, Subaro and other are not quite in agreement on that.
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2011, 11:44:08 am »
A scarce commodity like water is wasted on this thing.
 

Offline TheBear

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2011, 11:57:56 am »
A scarce commodity like water is wasted on this thing.

I can see how a Yamie rider would think this, but keep in mind that on other makes, the water cooling system is a closed circuit and doesn't require topping up twice a day.  :imaposer: 
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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2011, 12:24:38 pm »
A scarce commodity like water is wasted on this thing.

Come now. Surely you can do better than that?!

Offline Goose

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2011, 10:36:11 am »
A scarce commodity like water is wasted on this thing.

Come now. Surely you can do better than that?!

just use glycol
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Offline dust rat

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2011, 10:56:04 am »
Just weight a minute how heavy is that thing gonna be now 300kg
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KobusL

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2011, 11:06:21 am »
312.67kg wet
 

Provocateur

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2011, 11:08:34 am »
Porsche and Subaru still use boxer engines.  And these are seriously fast , reliable and efficient engines...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 11:09:52 am by Provocateur »
 

Offline lecap

Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2011, 05:03:18 pm »
AMZ and Provocateur you should maybe have read the whole thread especially reply #21 and you would KNOW why Porsche and Subaru still build Boxers ::)
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Offline TheBear

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2011, 06:03:46 pm »
AMZ and Provocateur you should maybe have read the whole thread especially reply #21 and you would KNOW why Porsche and Subaru still build Boxers ::)

I have read the whole thread, including reply #21.  If I have to take what I read in this thread seriously, I will now believe that water is wasted if used in a BMW engine, BMW's have whale sperm in their suspensions and Subaru and Porche use Boxer engine because they worked so well in an Alfasud.  Good reading, but still only one person's opinion and more amusing than valuable.   :mwink:

Somewhere, just after your post #21 I made a post about why BMW must move to a water cooled engine for the R1200GS.  Will they stick with a boxer.  I believe they will.  Not because the have a low centre of gravity, or because they give the best balance.  Purely because they sell so well.   In a battle between finance and technology in a listed company, finance usually wins.

If the decision was up to me, the next R1200GS would be fitted with a V-Twin, but alas, it is not up to me.

Just weight a minute how heavy is that thing gonna be now 300kg

Well, the current model is 4kg's lighter than the KTM, so there is room for a bit of a weight increase.   :biggrin:
 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 06:16:33 pm by AMZ »
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Provocateur

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2011, 06:26:52 pm »
Subaru and Porche use Boxer engine because they worked so well in an Alfasud. 

Porsche was using a boxer engine long before an Alfasud was even thought of. 

A vee engine is a boxer with the angle between the cylinders at less than 180 degrees.  The engineering reason for such engines is to make them shorter than an in-line engine.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 06:27:30 pm by Provocateur »
 

Offline ratrap

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2011, 07:56:40 pm »
A scarce commodity like water is wasted on this thing.
:laughing4: :laughing4: :laughing4: 2SD at his best!
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Offline Fenderbender

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2011, 08:19:41 pm »
A scarce commodity like water is wasted on this thing.

 Nee flippet Danie , jy kan beter as dit doen. Gooi ou mater .  :mwink:
ps . ek hou nie van bikes met radiator hoses nie.  :mwink:
 

Offline TheBear

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2011, 05:48:40 am »
Nee flippet Danie , jy kan beter as dit doen. Gooi ou mater .  :mwink:

Miskien was hy effe flou toe hy daai tjirp gegooi het.  Bike aan die brand stoot maak mens mos maar moeg.   :bueller:
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Offline lecap

Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2011, 08:49:48 am »
Subaru and Porche use Boxer engine because they worked so well in an Alfasud. 

Porsche was using a boxer engine long before an Alfasud was even thought of. 

A vee engine is a boxer with the angle between the cylinders at less than 180 degrees.  The engineering reason for such engines is to make them shorter than an in-line engine.

Not only Porsche Boxers pre dated the Alfasud.
Tatra, Volkawagen, Citroen, Chevrolet, Lancia just to n ame a few.

Tatra introduced the Tatra 11 in the same year (1923) as BMW did the R32. Differences? Besides the number of wheels not too many. The Tatra engine was an OHV design whilst the BMW was a SV. It took BMW another 15 years to adapt this feature.

ABC built boxers BMW style four years prior to BMW and ABC chief engineer Granville Bradshaw challenged BMW in 1926 for the use of his patented design.

A V engine has actually and contrary to your claim very little in common with a boxer:
A boxer has separate crankpins for opposed pairs of pistons with an offset of 180.
In V engines a pair of pistons (usually) share a crank pin.
Whilst some V's look like boxers they actually aren't for exactly the above reason. Examples are found in the Porsche 917, Ferrari Testarossa and Ferrari 512 series amongst others., They are propelled by 180 V12 - engines.
Some more recent developments look like V's externally but have crankpins offset at odd angles to make them run smoother. The Honda DS V2's of Transalp and Africa Twin fame are a prime example. Their crank design features make them something of a hybrid in between a boxer and a true V.

In a battle between finance and technology in a listed company, finance usually wins.

Compare complexity & cost of a boxer with a parallel twin.

The "boxer or not" controversy at BMW started well before the world even heard the first rumors of the Oilhead. The traditionalists won thanks to using the poor sales of the early K's in their argument.

But that's only my amusing opinion ::)
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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2011, 09:00:03 am »
A scarce commodity like water is wasted on this thing.

 Nee flippet Danie , jy kan beter as dit doen. Gooi ou mater .  :mwink:
ps . ek hou nie van bikes met radiator hoses nie. :mwink:

+100
Fish make love in it, that's why I don't even drink the stuff. ;)

Besides, the extra weight, pumps, fans, radiator????
As for performance, do we need more in a DS bike? My CB1100RC was aircooled.......... :pot:
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Provocateur

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2011, 10:08:40 am »

Not only Porsche Boxers pre dated the Alfasud.
Tatra, Volkawagen, Citroen, Chevrolet, Lancia just to n ame a few.

Tatra introduced the Tatra 11 in the same year (1923) as BMW did the R32. Differences? Besides the number of wheels not too many. The Tatra engine was an OHV design whilst the BMW was a SV. It took BMW another 15 years to adapt this feature.

ABC built boxers BMW style four years prior to BMW and ABC chief engineer Granville Bradshaw challenged BMW in 1926 for the use of his patented design.

A V engine has actually and contrary to your claim very little in common with a boxer:
A boxer has separate crankpins for opposed pairs of pistons with an offset of 180.
In V engines a pair of pistons (usually) share a crank pin.
Whilst some V's look like boxers they actually aren't for exactly the above reason. Examples are found in the Porsche 917, Ferrari Testarossa and Ferrari 512 series amongst others., They are propelled by 180 V12 - engines.
Some more recent developments look like V's externally but have crankpins offset at odd angles to make them run smoother. The Honda DS V2's of Transalp and Africa Twin fame are a prime example. Their crank design features make them something of a hybrid in between a boxer and a true V.


Semantics, semantics.....  There are so many different designs that to put the boxer into one camp and vee into another doesn't make sense.  Two cylinders boxers are normally 180 degrees out, but in the four and six cylinder engines, not necessarily so.  The prime reason for making these engines is to reduce the length (and weight) of the engine.
 

Offline lecap

Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2011, 11:05:05 am »
...The prime reason for making these engines is to reduce the length (and weight) of the engine.

I don't know if this is aimed at the new BMW?

The length argument: A boxer is actually not that much shorter than an inline with the same number of cylinders (Approximately 30% with little regard of the number of cylinders due to the restrictions of the crankshaft which needs one crank pin per cylinder) A V fares better as you increase the number of cylinders. This is one the reasons why the 512 Ferrari and Porsche 917 were designed as 180V not as boxers. One crankpin for a pair of cylinders.

Weight: In an watercooled inline engine the cylinders share cylinder walls. Wet sleeve designs only have walls encasing the whole cylinder block.
Inline as opposed to V or boxer OHC or DOHC engine saves on one camshaft drive train.

The primary reason for the BMW boxer was the mode of cooling. An air cooled engine can't be designed any better than an upright single or a horizontally opposed boxer with the gas flow inside the cylinder running from the back to the front.
Now they make the BMW boxer a watercooled crossflow design.
What's left?
Traditionalism!
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Provocateur

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Re: Liquid cooled 1300 GS
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2011, 11:15:46 am »
...The prime reason for making these engines is to reduce the length (and weight) of the engine.

I don't know if this is aimed at the new BMW?

The length argument: A boxer is actually not that much shorter than an inline with the same number of cylinders (Approximately 30% with little regard of the number of cylinders due to the restrictions of the crankshaft which needs one crank pin per cylinder) A V fares better as you increase the number of cylinders. This is one the reasons why the 512 Ferrari and Porsche 917 were designed as 180V not as boxers. One crankpin for a pair of cylinders.

Weight: In an watercooled inline engine the cylinders share cylinder walls. Wet sleeve designs only have walls encasing the whole cylinder block.
Inline as opposed to V or boxer OHC or DOHC engine saves on one camshaft drive train.

The primary reason for the BMW boxer was the mode of cooling. An air cooled engine can't be designed any better than an upright single or a horizontally opposed boxer with the gas flow inside the cylinder running from the back to the front.
Now they make the BMW boxer a watercooled crossflow design.
What's left?
Traditionalism!
Actually, I agree with you.  The aircooled BMW boxer was a great idea with the cylinder's cooling airflow unimpeded by the frame.  But when you look at the fancooled engines of the VW and Porsche airheads this was not a consideration.  It allowed for a low, wide engine that was relatively easy to work on.  In the 60s, my boet and I could remove a VW beetle engine in under 10 minutes.
An inline engine of the pre OHC days was substantially heavier and longer than a boxer.  Nowadays the DOHC boxer engines are still lighter, but the difference is not that great.