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Offline Mark Hardy

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Green Tax
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2007, 01:36:57 pm »
Quote from: "Zonkelnut"
It is all a way to set the peasants on frenzie away from the real thread of global domination by industrial powers and 2 wheel drive cage drivers. I say kill them all!!!! KILL THEM ALLL!!!!  :evil:

O sh1te, my wife drives a 2 wheel drive ?  :roll:  ... Wait ... Yip, kill them all!!!!!!  :evil:


send the assassin my way too :twisted:  :twisted:

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
 

Offline Butch

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« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2007, 03:01:08 am »
Let them bring on this tax thing - I'm not selling my gas guzzling hot hatch - it's way too much fun to drive.  :twisted:
Live and let live.
 

Offline michnus

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« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2007, 08:36:01 am »
Farting against thunder, so they save SA 1ton in CO emissions, and America in 1hour put out the SA total for 5years!

Her brain is waiting at the Brixton post office, go fetch it and start using it, there are much more important things to worry about.

Again it's just another way of ripping  the rich.

Offline wino

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« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2007, 01:38:22 pm »
which brings us to the topic of the plastic bag levy - what has the money been used for?

"NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

(For written reply)

QUESTION NO.  4

INTERNAL QUESTION PAPER NO.    1 of 2007

DATE OF PUBLICATION:   9 February 2007

Mr L W Greyling (ID) to ask the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism:

(1)   Whether any plastic bags have been recycled since the introduction of the plastic bag regulations under section 24 of the Environment Conservation Act, Act 73 of 1989; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;
(2)   (a) how much money has been made from the levy imposed on plastic bags and (b) how has this money been utilised;
(3)   whether he will make a statement on the matter?   
 
   
N9E

MR L W GREYLING (ID)
SECRETARY TO PARLIAMENT
HANSARD
PAPERS OFFICE
PRESS
 
4.  THE MINISTER OF ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS AND TOURISM ANSWERS:


(1)     The Plastic Bag Memorandum of Agreement was signed between my department, organised business and labour in September 2002.  Subsequently the Plastic Bag Regulations were promulgated in May 2003.  In line with the agreement it was agreed that a Section 21 company would be established whose function would be to facilitate the collection, reuse and recycling of plastic bags.  In order to ensure the sustainability of this company, a discussion and an agreement was reached with National Treasury to allow for the collection of a levy on bags manufactured.   To this end the Minister of Finance recommended an amendment of the Customs and Excise Act to give effect to the levy.  
It was only in 2005 that the company was established and commenced its function towards the end of the 2005/2006 financial year.  In order to ensure maximal collection of plastic waste nationally, the company has established over ten buy back centres nationally.  It is envisaged that these centres would soon show visible collection of plastic waste nationally. wino: so, the bags have been supposedly collected, but what happened to them? not answering the q, but wait, there's more...
(2) (a) and (b)  As indicated above, in terms of the Customs and Excise Act amended in 2003, National Treasury through the South African Revenue Services collect plastic bag levy from manufacturers. This levy is not ring-fenced for the collection, reuse and recycling of plastic bags.  :roll:  National Treasury and SARS have records of this levy.  However, I am able to confirm that my department has been receiving R20 million rand annually to facilitate the collection, reuse and recycling of plastic bags through the Section 21 Company.  The R20 million rand allocation has been used to establish the buy-back centres as earlier said.
(3)     The progress achieved to date by the Plastic Bag Section 21 Company is integrated within my department’s annual achievements.  To this end, progress or statement if any will be communicated as part of the entire Department's achievements." wino: at least he made a statement :evil:
 

Extreme Velcro

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« Reply #44 on: May 27, 2007, 03:09:29 pm »
I'm just glad that a large proportion of society DOES actually recyce their plastic bags and have been made aware of recycling by the need to pay for the bags, thereby reducting by an amount the plastic that is used in general.

Just one question that I really need to get an answer to, because I am not understanding this:

If the greenhouse effect is a hoax, what are the people like Al Gore getting out of scaring the world into cleaning up industry and trade emissions and trying to get us to use less gas?  

Also, how can one deny the fact that the ozone layer is depleting because greatest natural resource of ozone, namely the Amazon forest, is being chopped down?  The two go hand in hand.

How can one deny that one of the single most dangerous emissions, namely CO2, that is being dumped into our atmosphere every day by all of us who use cars (me too, before you all dump on me) surely has to have some effect on our environment?

And that by governments actually taking some responsibility (cos we certainly don't care) to try and clean this up by making us aware of our gas guzzling ways (and no, nothing they do is going to be perfect) they are being bad?

Has it ever occurred to us that the intent might actually be good?  Every now and again, because I know that not everyone in our government is bad, I actually believe that yes, its not always only to get at our bucks, but also to try and get us to clean up our act.
 

Offline mango

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« Reply #45 on: May 27, 2007, 06:26:14 pm »
If the government sets an example by getting rid of their luxury vehicles,
and cool it with their flying around the world for some stupid reason or
other then I'm all for it....

The other day saw a personalized plate on a luxury BM 4x4 "Poor-me WP"
Arrogant bugger....and no, it's not a dig at Beemers....
 

Offline mango

Green Tax
« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2007, 07:14:37 pm »
Actually, I have a suggestion to make...Switzerland is not my favourite
country.....but......it is run well and it works.

Recycling....they use black bags, and in order to get the people to recycle more, they make the black bin bags expensive to buy.....but, they also have adequate recycling bins for tins, jars, bottles, paper etc on every corner. Offcourse you will get the odd idiot dumping his shit in the forest, but boy, if they catch him, he is going to pay.

Public transport....what can I say? For that country, trams and busses work perfectly, and perhaps not feasible here, but they can get in experts from other parts of the world to advise us.

Voting.....this one I like a lot. Switz is made up of Kantons, which I would imagine similar to our provinces...they each get to vote for their own things.
If a stadium, school, police station etc needs to be built, it goes to the vote, and the locals decide whether it's a good idea or not. The local government has to convince us that it's a good idea and why.

We are not a bunch of idiots living here, and should be able to decide for ourselves, expecially if it involves us directly. That way, we probably wouldn't end up with eyesores like the pepper pots or the Green Point stadium.
 

Extreme Velcro

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« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2007, 07:47:07 am »
Mango, you are aboslutely right that it is made much easier to recycle etc. overseas.  Some countries ensure that there are different bins available for paper, plastic, glass etc. and everybody is so used to seperatng their trash....

As for public transport, well, we are just 100 years behind; words actually fail me as to how both the previous government and this one have screwed up on this issue.  In a country where people have to travel far to go to work, this should have always been a primary issue to sort out, not this disaster that it is.

As for the government, yeah well, what can we say - "the more things change, the more they stay the same"......
 

GS-holic

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« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2007, 08:53:56 am »
Recycling will never work in SA, it has been proven time and time again.  

In SA it is cheaper to manufacture a tin coke can from virgin material than from recycled.  Projects with the aim to implement recycling as a means of alleviating poverty in township areas has been initiated in abundance.  These are usually within the short term effective.  But as the volume of recycled material increases a notable interest loss from the collectors (manufacturers such as Consol, Alucan, Mondi, etc) are experienced.  A clear testimony of this is the small mountains of sorted glass that are prevalent in so many of the townships in SA.

What makes recycling even more successful in European countries is the fact that landfill space is limited and consequently recycling and incineration is high on the agenda of these governments.  In SA however, available land to dispose of solid waste is readily available which in effect does not contribute to the promotion of recycling, etc.
 

Extreme Velcro

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« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2007, 08:56:44 am »
Quote from: "GS-holic"
Recycling will never work in SA, it has been proven time and time again.  

In SA it is cheaper to manufacture a tin coke can from virgin material than from recycled.  Projects with the aim to implement recycling as a means of alleviating poverty in township areas has been initiated in abundance.  These are usually within the short term effective.  But as the volume of recycled material increases a notable interest loss from the collectors (manufacturers such as Consol, Alucan, Mondi, etc) are experienced.  A clear testimony of this is the small mountains of sorted glass that are prevalent in so many of the townships in SA.

What makes recycling even more successful in European countries is the fact that landfill space is limited and consequently recycling and incineration is high on the agenda of these governments.  In SA however, available land to dispose of solid waste is readily available which in effect does not contribute to the promotion of recycling, etc.


So basically we continue until we are a great big garbage tip - that's lovely.....

Anway, I use these people www.home.telkomsa.net/abundanceyoga

It's Cape Town based but works quite nicely.
 

GS-holic

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« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2007, 09:07:30 am »
Quote from: "Extreme Velcro"
Quote from: "GS-holic"
Recycling will never work in SA, it has been proven time and time again.  

In SA it is cheaper to manufacture a tin coke can from virgin material than from recycled.  Projects with the aim to implement recycling as a means of alleviating poverty in township areas has been initiated in abundance.  These are usually within the short term effective.  But as the volume of recycled material increases a notable interest loss from the collectors (manufacturers such as Consol, Alucan, Mondi, etc) are experienced.  A clear testimony of this is the small mountains of sorted glass that are prevalent in so many of the townships in SA.

What makes recycling even more successful in European countries is the fact that landfill space is limited and consequently recycling and incineration is high on the agenda of these governments.  In SA however, available land to dispose of solid waste is readily available which in effect does not contribute to the promotion of recycling, etc.


So basically we continue until we are a great big garbage tip - that's lovely.....

Anway, I use these people www.home.telkomsa.net/abundanceyoga

It's Cape Town based but works quite nicely.


Unfortunately, that is the way it seems - however during the last 10 years the National regulations pertaining to the operation and establishment of Landfill sites has been improved dramatically.  Previously a local government (municipalities) used to create a municipal "tip" wherever they wanted often without even considering groundwater sources and surface run-off.  

A nice example of properly managed landfill sites can be found in CPT and DBN which are the forerunners on all solid waste initiatives.  
.
 

Offline IceCreamMan

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Green Tax
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2007, 09:23:24 am »
Quote from: "mango"


We are not a bunch of idiots living here, .


this sytem will not work here ....think about it ,,switzerland is imho one of the most advanced democracies on earth with first world ppl who are well educated compared to ZA ..

cheers
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Offline LuckyStriker

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« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2007, 09:47:37 am »
I have not yet watched Al Gore's dokkie but I have done some research of my own and discovered the following facts on Global Warming:

It's a natural occurance

The following graph is derived from ice core samples and other geological surveys:

If you look at the blue line you will notice that the earth suffers occasional ice ages.
We are currently coming out of one that reached rock bottom a few hundred thousand years ago (around the time man started to get brains).
The earth likes to be at 22degrees. That's a global average of 10degrees hotter than it is now.

What will a world with a global average of 22degrees look like? It will look like Jurassic park of course! (but without the dinosaurs).

Sea levels will be 80metres higher - that means Cape Town is gonners.

The ice will melt, oceans will rise
the currents will change causing new weather patterns and hotter climates.
Water expands as it heats up causing ocean levels to rise even more.
All the extra water will press down on the continents, sinking them and flooding inland to re-create the great inland oceans of millions of years ago. Imagine lakeside properties near Sutherland!
The increased pressure on the continents may also squeeze out some underground reserves causing fresh water lakes in places like the sahara.

Atmosperic heating will cause CO2 to be released from the ice and earth (It's been building up at an alarming rate the past thousands of years)
The extra CO2 is poison to us but fortunately not terminally toxic. Plants will love it and increase in size and abundance.
Gigantic trees and ferns will once again cover the lands like in the days of the giant herbivores such as the Brontosaurs.

The returning forrests and savannahs will produce more oxygen and the air will become thick and stifling. Humans will sweat like pigs and die of lung related illnesses.
Corn and maize crops will fail. Bananas and pawpaws will flourish.
Insects will grow bigger and again compete for food against mammals and other land animals. Imagine a cockroach 30cm long! There used to be plenty of monster insects when the earth had more oxygen 50million years ago. The Triassic period had millipedes 3metres long!!

I'm sure some of you think it doesn't sound all that bad but keep in mind that the transition period will probably be marked by more floods, earthquakes and severe storms.
It won't wipe us out in a short time and we will probably survive until the earth reaches it's optimum temp a few thousand years from now.
Unfortunately many, if not most, of us will die in the next few hundred years.

What does pollution do? Some scientists think it caused the warming. I say bullshit.
Some scientists say it sped the cycle up. I think they may have a point.
Others say it makes little or no difference. That is irresponsible behaviour IMHO. It makes a difference to me, the person who has to breathe your fumes and step in your shit.

Thas was my rant. It was nice knowing you all. Civilization will end as we know it in the next hundred years or so. The human race will probably come out better for it but most of our children will die because we never bothered to prepare for the changes.
 

Offline mango

Green Tax
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2007, 07:02:12 pm »
Quote from: "IceCreamMan"
Quote from: "mango"


We are not a bunch of idiots living here, .


this sytem will not work here ....think about it ,,switzerland is imho one of the most advanced democracies on earth with first world ppl who are well educated compared to ZA ..

cheers


The problem is that the government will never allow itself to be
dictated to by their people....they are the dictators.

Having a good education doesn't make one more intelligent....I experience
that every day.....lack of communication makes us think most are idiots.
 

shark_za

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« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2007, 07:05:43 pm »
So how will you implement this law?

Make it a blanket law for new 4x4's?

Go on fuel consumption figures?  

Vehicle weight?

Or emissions levels from the manufacturer?



Its a good idea but one that is not thought through.
 

Extreme Velcro

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« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2007, 06:37:41 am »
Quote from: "shark_za"
So how will you implement this law?

Make it a blanket law for new 4x4's?

Go on fuel consumption figures?  

Vehicle weight?

Or emissions levels from the manufacturer?



Its a good idea but one that is not thought through.


You are right Shark,  a little bit of thought needs to go into it.  I would presume they will ask for public participation on the matter at some stage and hopefully a sensible plan will be thrashed out (although lets be honest, to make EVERYBODY in SA happy is a tough task).
 

Offline IceCreamMan

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Green Tax
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2007, 10:34:38 am »
Quote from: "mango"
Quote from: "IceCreamMan"
Quote from: "mango"


We are not a bunch of idiots living here, .


this sytem will not work here ....think about it ,,switzerland is imho one of the most advanced democracies on earth with first world ppl who are well educated compared to ZA ..

cheers


The problem is that the government will never allow itself to be
dictated to by their people....they are the dictators.

Having a good education doesn't make one more intelligent....I experience
that every day.....lack of communication makes us think most are idiots.


I agree , a good education does not make one intelligent ....however intelligence is generally a pre-requisite for a good education. (this is borne out by numerous studies) Very few dumb people get good educations ....

Switzerland specificially has an average population IQ of about 102.

ZA has an average popualtion IQ of +- 75.

*as measured and estimated by Lynn*

the difference is vast ...a spread of 27 points is nearly 2 standard deviations ...

a first world democracy as is the case in Switzerland will never work in ZA...not today ,not tomorrow and not in a 1000 years from now unless the demographics of ZA changes drastically.
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Offline LuckyStriker

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Green Tax
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2007, 10:49:28 am »
Quote from: "IceCreamMan"
Switzerland specificially has an average population IQ of about 102.

ZA has an average popualtion IQ of +- 75.

sorry but that's bollocks 8)

The average IQ of a population as a whole is always, by definition, 100.
there can never be an average above or below 100.
It can be claimed that one population has a above average IQ compared to the rest of the world population but such a claim is easily discarded on the basis of cultural factors.

There are many forms of IQ test. Most give a unique result:
Stanford-Binet test, the Wechsler tests. the Raven Progressive Matrices, the California Test of Mental Maturity, the Cattell Culture-Fair Test, Scholastic Aptitude Test, the Graduate Record Exam, the Miller Analogies, the Mega Test, the Titan Test, and the Test for Genius...to name but a few

http://www.geocities.com/rnseitz/Definition_of_IQ.html

sorry about the hijack
 

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« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2007, 10:59:11 am »
Quote from: "LuckyStriker"
That was my rant. It was nice knowing you all. Civilization will end as we know it in the next hundred years or so. The human race will probably come out better for it but most of our children will die because we never bothered to prepare for the changes.


That's very interesting info LS. This last paragraph is a bit of a downer though.  :(  Maybe I should take a ride to cheer me back up  :D
 

Offline IceCreamMan

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« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2007, 12:09:53 pm »
Quote from: "LuckyStriker"
Quote from: "IceCreamMan"
Switzerland specificially has an average population IQ of about 102.

ZA has an average popualtion IQ of +- 75.

sorry but that's bollocks 8)

The average IQ of a population as a whole is always, by definition, 100.
there can never be an average above or below 100.
It can be claimed that one population has a above average IQ compared to the rest of the world population but such a claim is easily discarded on the basis of cultural factors.

There are many forms of IQ test. Most give a unique result:
Stanford-Binet test, the Wechsler tests. the Raven Progressive Matrices, the California Test of Mental Maturity, the Cattell Culture-Fair Test, Scholastic Aptitude Test, the Graduate Record Exam, the Miller Analogies, the Mega Test, the Titan Test, and the Test for Genius...to name but a few

http://www.geocities.com/rnseitz/Definition_of_IQ.html

sorry about the hijack


Right ,my apologies i should of made it clear, in comparison to the english population average of 100 the above is calculated.

http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm
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