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Offline lecap

Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2007, 10:49:37 am »
IMHO the following would be a viable solution:
Only roadlegal (means fitted with a license plate and valid license disk) bikes are allowed.

This has a number of advantages:
Firstly very simple: Racing quad bikes and MX bikes have to go where they belong. To dedicated tracks purpose made for them.

Besides that: Policing is made very simple. If there is a complaint about reckless driving or excessive noise the owner of the vehicle will be very easy to find and to make liable.
If a Cape Nature official suspects a "borrowed" license plate and disc on a race trim screaming MX it will be easy to check (VIN).
If a rider misbehaves he and his vehicle can get banned effectively from Cape Nature land.

I must admit that the closure of The Hell for motorcycles comes as a shock for me. I have sent many of my customers into Gamkaskloof over the last six years without ever receiving any complaints.
My customers do Gamkaskloof as a day trip based on a guest farm near Calitzdorp. I will for my part recommend to them to go as far as they are allowed and will leave it to the owners of the kiosk to take on Cape Nature to allow day visitors with street legal licensed bikes access to the kiosk.

To the forum I would suggest a petition to be submitted to Cape Nature + DEAT:
To allow licensed motorcycles into Die Hel as denying them access constitutes discrimination of their riders.
To deny access to Die Hel to all unlicensed vehicles no matter if travelling on their own wheels or trailered or piggyback on a bakkie.
To enforce a set of rules for ALL visitors: No excessive noise, no unnecessary riding / driving, no offroad.
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Offline Trailrider

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2007, 11:02:50 am »
Looks like I might be off a little (just a little):

http://home.new.rr.com/trumpetb/audio/dBexamp.html



Interresting table this. I have measured my NXR (a VERY quiet bike) with an actual db meter and it got to just over 100db at high revving. A KDX with performance pipe idles at 115 db. So either our meter was flucked or the table is somehow a different db? Like you get a ton and a metric ton?
 

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2007, 12:27:27 pm »
Looks like I might be off a little (just a little):

http://home.new.rr.com/trumpetb/audio/dBexamp.html



Interresting table this. I have measured my NXR (a VERY quiet bike) with an actual db meter and it got to just over 100db at high revving. A KDX with performance pipe idles at 115 db. So either our meter was flucked or the table is somehow a different db? Like you get a ton and a metric ton?

Waar was die meter toe jy dit getoets het ?
Hoe ver van die motorfiets af ?


Ek dink persepsie van klank is ook logaritmies sagter hoe verder jy van dit af is (soos bv oorfone - oorverdowend wanneer dit op jou ore is is amper onhoorbaar 3 meter weg...)

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Trailrider

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2007, 01:32:45 pm »
Langs die fiets redelik agter exhaust kant. Ek en Sir Gravellot het die bikes getoets voor ons 'n natuurbewrings gebied binnegegaan het..
 

Offline Runner

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2007, 08:13:57 pm »
So, none of this kinda stuff:


[/img]

Hierdie fotos is geneem in Swaziland. Ons het daar gery MET toestemming, weg van enige natuurreservaat of iemand se huis of enige iets.Ons het niemand de moer  in gehad of niks nie, kry iets anders vir 'n voorbeelb bv 'n quad!!! :(
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Offline Trailrider

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2007, 09:09:24 pm »
So, none of this kinda stuff:


[/img]

Hierdie fotos is geneem in Swaziland. Ons het daar gery MET toestemming, weg van enige natuurreservaat of iemand se huis of enige iets.Ons het niemand de moer  in gehad of niks nie, kry iets anders vir 'n voorbeelb bv 'n quad!!! :(

Runner

Niemand het gese dis jou/julle skuld nie. Speel is fine en lekker op die regte plekke met toestemming soos julle gedoen het. Ek het gese:

Growweblaar - that's why all bikes are now banned. Playing is lekke and fine, but surely not in a Nature Conservation area...

Actually, that's unfair towards MX bikes. I am of the opinion that the Quad guys are solely responsible for the Hell debacle and when they got banned they said "but what about the bikers?"

I don't know of a single good thing that came of quads. They just Fcuk up everything for all of us.  :evil:

Ek dink nie iemand het iets sleg oor julle bedoel nie - net dat mense nie dit in 'n natuurbewaring gebied moet doen nie - ek dink jy stem saam...?
 

Offline Captain Zef

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #66 on: June 12, 2007, 06:31:05 am »
I don't even know how to pop a wheely.


Hi Slow.......... I expected a bit more from you  !!!! ::) ::) ::)

Why??  ;D

I'm still a beginner.


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Offline lecap

Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #67 on: June 12, 2007, 08:38:34 am »
Re: decibels:

Some of the posts above show why it's not a good idea to arm the Cape Nature officialy with dB meters.
There is a lot of different ways to measure sound pressure in decibels:
The standard ISO way is at a distance of 1m from the source of the noise.

This is the one NOT used for vehicles. Imagine measuring one metre from the side or front and one metre behind the exhaust.

There is two types of noise emission measurements in general, stationary and passing vehicle noise emission.

I don't remember exactly how it works but stationary the test microphone is behind the vehicle at a certain distance and offset to the sides facing towards the rear endof the vehicle.
Passing vehicle is measured at a given distance under specific load (throttle position, gear) with the vehicle approaching and passing the microphone and the mic. pointing at the side of the vehicle.

Definitely waaay to complicated to get reproducable results in a field environment.
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Offline LuckyStriker

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #68 on: June 12, 2007, 09:02:40 am »
It's funny how those Unimog or tractor Game Viewers are the noisiest vehicles in the nature reserves

I've been on one or two night drives on the back of a diesel Toyota game viewer and we could barely hear the shouting guide over the rattling tappets
 

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #69 on: June 12, 2007, 10:57:51 am »
Re: decibels:

Some of the posts above show why it's not a good idea to arm the Cape Nature officialy with dB meters.
There is a lot of different ways to measure sound pressure in decibels:
The standard ISO way is at a distance of 1m from the source of the noise.

This is the one NOT used for vehicles. Imagine measuring one metre from the side or front and one metre behind the exhaust.

There is two types of noise emission measurements in general, stationary and passing vehicle noise emission.

I don't remember exactly how it works but stationary the test microphone is behind the vehicle at a certain distance and offset to the sides facing towards the rear endof the vehicle.
Passing vehicle is measured at a given distance under specific load (throttle position, gear) with the vehicle approaching and passing the microphone and the mic. pointing at the side of the vehicle.

Definitely waaay to complicated to get reproducable results in a field environment.



After reading up on it I too think that it is dangerous to give an official a mobile db meter...


(Btw - I've read somewhere that it is 1 meter from the exhaust, 45 degrees offset...)

LS - I'm thinking the same thing as you about them noisemakers.

The issue is that some (ignorant) folks just don't like bikes.
So then you ask them why and they start coming up with stupid excuses (like 'its too noisy').

Like Oppad said - it is difficult for the person that are arguing about it, using noise levels as the main 'trump card', if they haven't heard you arrive...


I will challenge anyone about my bike's noise level.
I will ride in front of any offroad bakkie into any area and I can guarantee you that you will hear the bakkie and not my bike...

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Jaqhama

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2007, 03:05:48 pm »
Noise tests are useless unless conducted in a sterile enviroment.
A db meter on the side of the road is not going to be precise.

I think Cape Nature are just discriminating against bikers.
What they are really saying is we don't want bikes in our reserves.
Much better to have big 4x4's spewing out diesel and digging deeper tread pattens into the x4 than a smaller and lighter and cleaner two wheeled vehicle.
Excluding 2 strokes of course. ;D
I am talking about registered bikes, not un-regoed bikes.
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Offline Captain Zef

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2007, 08:10:46 pm »
Noise tests are useless unless conducted in a sterile enviroment.
A db meter on the side of the road is not going to be precise.

I think Cape Nature are just discriminating against bikers.
What they are really saying is we don't want bikes in our reserves.
Much better to have big 4x4's spewing out diesel and digging deeper tread pattens into the x4 than a smaller and lighter and cleaner two wheeled vehicle.
Excluding 2 strokes of course. ;D
I am talking about registered bikes, not un-regoed bikes.


I agree with Jaq once again. I just wrote my audio engineering exams and therefore i know dB meter reading are shite..  ;D


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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2007, 08:40:41 am »

I think Cape Nature are just discriminating against bikers.
What they are really saying is we don't want bikes in our reserves.

Jaq - I think THAT is the thing ...
Too many people act out of ignorance.

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Jaqhama

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2007, 06:36:27 pm »
National Parks and Wildlife in my State have just completly banned all trail bikes and horse riders from a huge tract of land near me where people have been riding since World war Two.
I have written a letter to our local paper, much good that will do.

I don't know what it is with the majority of normal, non-biking citizens and a myriad of organisations...they just don't like us bikers.

I don't believe it's just noise and such like.
I believe on some deeper level (that they unable to explain) that they hate us for
our obvious love of life and the way we express it thru our motorcycles.

Time after time trail bikers have proven beyond doubt that they do much less enviromental damage than people in 4x4's...and yet it makes no difference, we are continually banned from more and more areas.

The only place people do seem to accept trail biking as a perfectly legitimate form of transport and recreation is in the USA.
There's a lot of things to dislike about America, but I cannot fault their acceptance of most forms of recreational transport and enjoyment.
Many States have also banned fixed speed cameras, because the people know it's just revenue raising and nothing to do with road safety.

If I ever have more money that I know what to do with I shall emigrate to America in a heartbeat!
It's not just a mode of transport, it's a fking adventure!
 

Offline cbekker

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2007, 07:23:34 am »
The 3 Dudes did the Hell first week of January 2007 2x1200GS and 1x650GS and it was brilliant.

But as we were going down there were 4x4's flying up the hill with innocent little trailers hanging on for dear life. That was fun and our front runner even had to move/dump it into the ditch to avoid one coming round a corner.
4x4 might have been pouring himself a cold one or he was blinded by the beauty of the pony who knows.

When we got down to the gate nobody was there except a lone Quad bike obviously for official business.

So we tootled through to the shop and really what nice people quick with the drinks, a lovely meal and a history lesson. What you'd like to expect.
These people I am sure need the trade and the officials must figure out something a little more workable because you WILL need a drink and a spot of grub at the bottom.

I think engaging with Erica in a friendly manner is best and just let her know the intentions i.e. you'r touring and want to pop down for photos, a meal and to see the historical sites, mention support vehicles with the family etc. Worked for us in other places where it was a strict no entry deal. But behave as they definitely watch.

There were chalets looking newly built or renovated from the outside. We would consider doing the trip again and staying the night.

BE WARNED Watch out for the baboons. I had to make a small detour as a group seemed quite keen to take turns on the 1200.
 

Offline Trailrider

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2007, 10:38:11 pm »
These new signs are up everywhere. I saw at least six.



I spoke to the guy from Cape Nature. He is new to Gamkaskloof (2 months) and a friendly bloke. He says they had a booking for six people a while ago. When the group arrived there were 27 of them - all on Quads. They got drunk at 9 in the morning and started screaming up & down the Kloof on the quads. He had to throw them out and this is why bikes and quads wanting to enter the kloof now has to be regulated with permits. He is not against bikes in general, just hooligans. We got 8 permits to go in this weekend and all we had to do was ask. If we misbehaved we would not get permits again. KAAS & Raider also went to Gamkaskloof on Friday night and got 2 permits no problem.

When we entered the kloof we got stopped and asked for our permits. I again had to produce them when we got the keys for out spot. The guy from Cape Nature was friendly and talkative and he gave us no grief or attitude at all. He used to ride a XR500 himself. I suggested that they maybe consider letting road legal licensed bikes in as this would cut out most of the problem bikes. He said he thought that it was a good idea and that he would take it up with Cape Nature. I believe building a relationship with these guys might be the best short term solution. I intend sending Erika a thank you e-mail again tomorrow.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2007, 10:39:30 pm by Trailrider »
 

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #76 on: June 18, 2007, 10:33:31 am »
Quote
I believe building a relationship with these guys might be the best short term solution. I intend sending Erika a thank you e-mail again tomorrow.

Thats the best way.

02/02/12 - RIP Glen - the Arrow of Elliot and the little man with the big heart that truly was larger than life.

You have touched us and left us better for having known you - even if it was only briefly.

For grabbing the moment and living the day It's been way too early that you were taken away
 

Offline Rat

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2007, 07:13:25 pm »
For those of us who have had the privilage to visit Die Hell , you should all know how friendly they are there and my most memorable experience of a night in Die Hell was the quietness and the view of the stars. You have to have done this to understand there is a lot of sound (excuse the pun) reasoning taking place here.

Lets work with them as I'm sure we will regain their respect.
 

Offline Maverick

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Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2007, 03:40:23 pm »
RE: The Hell.
Well unless it's a particularly interesting and challenging dirt road I personally wouldn't even bother to ride it now.



Jaq the road is not really technical but picture perfect. Been down the Hell a few times as a tour operator with my inlaws who have a B&B in Prince Albert. It is beautifull down there and certainly a must see place.
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Offline lecap

Re: The Hell - no bikes allowed...
« Reply #79 on: July 09, 2007, 03:37:05 pm »
I applied for a permit for one of my customers who will go on a day trip from Calitzdorp to Die Hel on Thursday.

Wrote a bit disappointed and sad for all motorbikes being clubbed for the unruly behavior of drunkheads and hooligans.

This was the IMHO very reasonable reply that also clarifies the matter quite a bit with regards to "normal" DS travelers or adventure riders as opposed to MX racing bikes and quads. Very good to see that the officials see and make the difference.
See you in Die Hel!

Quote:

Goodday
 
No we do not have a ban on motorcycles because they are mostly roadworthy, licensed etc.  We just would like to know who will be visiting the area on motorcycles as we have had such a lot of trouble with motorcycles and quad bikes. 

Quad bikes are now banned in total.

If you could just e-mail me and let me know how many motorcycles would be entering the Gamkaskloof on which date it would be greatly appreciated as we just need to know whom to contact if any inappropriate behaviour is reported.
Touring groups are more than welcome they are not the problem but not to confuse the staff in Gamkaskloof I phone ahead and tell them whom to expect.

If you have any questions please contact me - if you do not have time to e-mail please call me on my cell phone.

Regards
 
Erika Swanepoel
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Gouritz Mega Park
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Oudtshoorn
6620
 
Tel: 044-203 6325
Fax: 086-528 9696
 
Cell: 082-777 9969
 
e-Mail: eswanepoel@capenature.co.za
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