The Hell - no bikes allowed...

[mango]

[quote="bobnob
i'm not talking aggravate them - i'm say that if we can show them how big the bike market is they might think twice about the ban - with the large amount of business they will be losing

i'm saying people should plan trips and request bike access

if a thousand people plan a trip over a year period they might think to reconsider...[/quote]

I hate it when money becomes more important than the enviroment.
A long term solution should be found, and to hell with whether money
will be lost or not. Take a look at the new stadium they are builing in
Cape Town.....they don't give a shit about what it looks like, but what
it will earn in the short term.

Look at the damage 4x4s have caused to the enviroment on Blouberg Hill? It will make a ban necessary, and will take years to recover.

You have to start somewhere, and if research finds that quads are mainly to blame, then ban them, and make it clear, that should the problems continue with other bikes and 4x4s, then I agree that they too should be banned.

[letsgofishing]

What would be wrong with only allowing road licenced bikes in conjunction with the use of a decibel meter  -say 96dB? That way  you're either in or out.

[Clockwork Orange]

What would be wrong with only allowing road licenced bikes in conjunction with the use of a decibel meter  -say 96dB? That way  you're either in or out.

I agree with this. I also think Mango has a valid point too. It is harsh but if that is what it takes to safe the sensitive areas, I can respect that.

[Watty]

What would be wrong with only allowing road licenced bikes in conjunction with the use of a decibel meter  -say 96dB? That way  you're either in or out.

Agree!  Set an acceptable standard that is easy to implement and control.

[Trailrider]

What would be wrong with only allowing road licenced bikes in conjunction with the use of a decibel meter  -say 96dB? That way  you're either in or out.

Agree!  Set an acceptable standard that is easy to implement and control.

Cool. Just remember that 96dB is VERY low. It will probably rule out most bikes here. I'm not sure, but I think the standard GS1200 could be OK. Some of those bikes run very quietly.

An "acceptable standard" for bikers would probably be more in the 110 - 120 dB range, while the "acceptable standard" for the conservation guys would be more in the region of 0dB.  :?:

IMO any licensed bike with a standard exhaust should be OK. Aftermarket / performance pipes could get load for a conservation area.

(and a car exhaust of course...    hey Paramed?)

[KiLRoy]

Its so 'yesterday' to just an all bikes and quads.  So brain dead, retarded and Mugabe-like.

t's pretty easy to ban Kwats and MX bikes without falling into the trap you caution against.
Simply outlaw non-street legal machines on the premises.

LS, as easy as that, problem solved.  A noisy exhaust is an illegal bike - thats how they can police it.  A HP2 making kak can be policed via the entry rules on a board (it in any case only 0.214563%) of bikers/visitors.

I don't like the Gestapo-like 'phone Erika - depending on the state of her PMS she'll decide the outcome of your trip' - idea.  Make the rules simple and concise - only street-legal bikes (implying street-legal zorsts).  We have to decide then - either a mean sounding performance zorst or access to Nature Reserves - easy as that.  We must get these monkeys away from decision-making.

I know a lot of stupid people are f@king up our nature reserves and sensitive areas, but these Nature Reserve people sometimes act if they own the planet with all its fauna and flora.  If 1% of people are dose - you don't have to act like a drill sergeant for the other 99%?

In order to keep out 99.9% of the culprits on their quads and MX bikes (which will be simple to regulate as mentioned above), they run the risk of alienating a lot of right-minded riders supporting their course.

I don't like this 'ask Erika' uber alles fuhrer mentality - rather use intelligent, transparent rules to govern access.

MHO - Hein

[SirGravellot]

TR - I have posted a detailed reply on your related post - All punished for the sins of others...

http://wilddogtours.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7707

I completely agree with mountainboy.

To answer TR question: Most "old" bikes (Pre 2006) wouldn't pass the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) requirements wrt noise and gas emissions. From 2006 onwards most Road-legal bikes/quads (from major players - Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, BMW, Kawasaki) have the EPA certificate and all sport bikes/quads have an EPA label showing that the manufacturer has
produced it under EPA competition exemption - in other words it doesn't comply to the noise & emission standard.

We're probably looking at anything below 120 db should be fine though. But I doubt it that the "Veldwagters" would be issued with a decibell meter though.... :roll:

[PARAMED]

Having read all that has been said,I also dont enjoy the Nazi state mentality,what qualifies one person to say yes,or no...That is to prone to fluctuation.... Rather have clear guide lines!



TR,I have changed my BOOM box,to a Factory spec XT660R Xhorst,so hopefully I can have some mates to ride with as noone seemed to want to ride anywhere near me???


What is the word on the 16th trip?
Is it worth a Petition by all paticipating WD members?

[Jaqhama]

RE: The Hell.

Had this sort of thing happen in Oz many times.

So it's no legal registered bikes during holiday periods or long weekends and then you need to ring for entry permission anyway even during the week?
What this Erika woman is really saying is that as far as she is concerned you are second class citizens and don't have the same rights as a cage driver.
She has judged all of you according to something that some other quad or bike rider has done.
Small minded to say the least!
But if the camping area is private property then they can allow entry to who they want, or choose to refuse it.

The road into the camp site is one in and one way out yes?
Well unless it's a particularly interesting and challenging dirt road I personally wouldn't even bother to ride it now.

Number one: I ain't going to beg permission to be allowed into an area that cage drivers can come and go into at will!
Number two: I would not give them the satisfaction of spending any of my money in a place where they don't really want bikers to begin with!

Doubtless over the years they have had many well behaved riders camp there.
That obviously counts for nothing.

So to be blunt (and I often am) FK them!
I would just cross the Hell off my list of places to go.
I might however look around the area at other private properties, perhaps a farm or something, and approach the owner of that place and see if he/she would care to profit from dual sport riders camping on their property.

In Oz we just camp in the bush...can you not just ride a little ways off of the main route and set up your campsites?
All you need is food and water.

[mango]

I'm a little lost here  :?

I thought we were discussing the damage offroad users were causing to
the enviroment, and not the noise levels, although I do agree with bringing down the noise levels.....but......what the hell has that got to do
with the actual damage that is being done?

Sometimes banning is a necessary evil,and I believe S Africans as a whole, don't give a shit about their surrounds.....Open your eyes, and
look around you?

[Trailrider]

I thought we were discussing the damage offroad users were causing to the enviroment, and not the noise levels, although I do agree with bringing down the noise levels.....but......what the hell has that got to do
with the actual damage that is being done?

In this Hell debate noise levels is very relevant. It's probably (?) the main reason we're not allowed. Surely bikes don't cause more damage on long weekends than any other days?

So why "could" we "possibly" be allowed, but not on Long weekends or holidays? Because the other holiday makers complain about hooligans and noise. Once you prove that your bike runs quietly and you're not a hooligan the environment arguments will come out.  

Having said that - I do strongly believe that the environment should be protected.

http://www.treadlightly.org/page.php/responsible-dirtbike/Responsible-DirtBike.html

[Captain Zef]

I agree with Jaq, they can go and get f*****.  

We'll make our own camp. Just need food and water.

[Jaqhama]

I agree with Jaq, they can go and get f*****.  

We'll make our own camp. Just need food and water.

This young Jedi will go far.

[Captain Zef]

I agree with Jaq, they can go and get f*****.  

We'll make our own camp. Just need food and water.

This young Jedi will go far.

Well i'm learning from the best.

[KiLRoy]

Can't see any damage to the environment when riding on public roads.  Quads and MX bike by design is not allowed on public roads, therefore ride on tracks and trails and wherever.  Although we can do it with d/s bike, we mostly ride on lesser traveled gravel roads.  

I'll be damn to understand how a d/s bike can cause more damage on a public road than a car or 4x4.

Its illegal to ride q and mx bikes on public roads, even secondary and gravel ones.  If push comes to shove (or maybe as a protest action) we can ride our bikes into the hell on the public road, park next to the fence and camp on the other side of the fence as a pedestrian - can't stop us, its a public road - f em

H

[Trailrider]

We got permission to go in. We discuss the particulars of the trip on the planning thread, but for the broader discussion here I post a draft of the reply I got from Erika (Sorry Jaq and others - it's in Afrikaans)


Mr ___________

Hiermee word toestemming verleen aan Mnr ________________ om met Agt (8 ) Motorfietse in Gamkakloof in en uit te beweeg op 16 Junie 2007.  
 
Alle openbare padreÃ?«ls geld en onder geen omstandighede neem WCNCB (CapeNature) verantwoordelikheid vir enige ongeluk of besering opgedoen deur enige van die persone wat die area betree nie die betreding en gebruik word op eie risiko gedoen.  Hierdie pad word tans deur die Provinsiale Padingenieur as nie standaard geklasifiseer en sodoende word  die pad en area op eie risiko gebruik en word u of u voertuig nie verseker deur enige versekerings maatskappy nie.  Geen persone sonder die nodige provinsiale voertuig lisensie mag die voertuie bestuur nie.  
 
Spoedbeperkings binne die reservaat (40km/h) moet ten alle tye gehandhaaf word en die voertuie mag slegs gebruik word op die padoppervlakte en mag nie die pad verlaat nie.  Voertuie mag nie 'n steuring wees vir enige ander besoekers of natuurlewe in die omgewing nie. U moet asb in aanmerking neem dat die area wat u betree 'n Kultuur Historiese en Wereld Erfenis Gebied binne 'n Provinsiale Natuur Reservaat is.
 
Hierdie dokument moet getoon kan word aan persone wat navrae doen en indien alle reÃ?«ls nie nagekom word nie kan u gevra word om die area te verlaat sonder enige terugbetaling van kostes deur u aangegaan.    
 
Groete
 
Erika Swanepoel
Tourism Officer/Toerisme Beampte
Private Bag X658/Privaatsak X658
OUDTSHOORN
6620
 
Tel: 044-2036325
Fax: 086-528 9696
Cell: 082-777 9969
e-mail: eswanepoel@capenature.co.za
website: www.capenature.co.za

So permission from Erika is the reality of the case at the moment. I would suggest the following:

We'll do our trip and BEHAVE. We want to build a relationship rather than confront Erika / Cape Nature.

We will try and get an appointment with Erika and maybe Sir Gravellot can do a presentation and state our case. He is VERY knowledgeable about these things and delivers excellent presentations.

Maybe after we spoke to her the Wild Dogs can contact Cape Nature in an official sense and in a broader nature, as these permissions will soon be a reality in most if not all Cape Nature reserves (including Montagu Pass).

What do you guys think?

KiLRoy?

[Captain Zef]

As KILEROY said: F em. hehehe  

[PARAMED]

So Johan,If I want to meet up with you,I have to pop in to Wilderness,Get my mothballed Series 2 L/Rover,leave my DS bike,which I bought with the full intention of riding africa's unexplored wilderness areas,in the spirit of adventure,broadening my horizons,to get in my 4x4 CAGE,which I dont need any permits for........ Just to experience raw nature,spending my hard earned money,putting back into conservation!!!!!!!!!

I dont know about you guys,but I have an aweful taste in my mouth...!


A disgruntled Rider

Bryan

P.S And you say the whole of cape Nature is going this way!!!!?
      Anyone got a job for me up country,apparently I need to relocate  

[Eisbein]

Are you guys sure about the DB levels ?

According to this site: http://www.josaka.com/Content/2000/Decibel-Chart.htm


This is about 90 db:
Heavy truck @ 15m     
Very annoying.  Can damage hearing after 8 hours exposure per day.
Busy city street
Lawn mower
Loud shout


My bike is quiter than that, as I can rev it up to 3000 rpm without having to raise my voice when I talk to someone.
Heavy truck at 15 meters ?

100db:
Jet takeoff @ 500m     
Train horn @ 30m

Can damage hearing after 2 hours exposure per day.


110 - 115:
Thunderclap     
Maximum vocal effort. 
Can damage hearing after  15 minutes exposure per day

Sand-blasting
Squealing pigs (not mine ...)
Amplified Rock Music


The DB scale is logarithmic, so things towards the top of the scale goes hellova loud very quickly tho'...
 

I would consider my bike (shamefully subjective...) around 70:

Motorway traffic @ 15m     
Telephone use difficult
Roadside traffic
Train horn @ 500m
Noisy restaurant
Fortissimo singer 3 ft. away
Normal piano practice

But's that objective and not considering my tinnitus ...

 

[Eisbein]

Looks like I might be off a little (just a little):

http://home.new.rr.com/trumpetb/audio/dBexamp.html