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Author Topic: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao  (Read 4879 times)

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Offline cloudgazer

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #100 on: January 25, 2012, 02:24:40 pm »
We wouldnt have had this discussion if BMW beefed up the front forks, made the tank 22liters, and got rid of that farking ridiculous headlight.

The Dakkie is a proven design in it's market segment, but you HAVE to innovate, even if you re-launch an old model.

Then you can charge R90k for it and no-one will complain.

Slapping new plastics on is nice, but for us that know a thing or two about bikes, it's not enough.

But it will be a hit with first-time buyers because of price, heritage and after-sales service.





You are right - we'd be having a very different discussion. Everybody would be lambasting BMW for putting a R90k price tag on a single  :deal:

Everyone has a gripe - except those that actually own or have owned a Dakar  :imaposer:

Agree with both.

But the bike is aimed at first time buyers... for people that know a thing or two about bikes, know they'll need to farkle it.
 

Offline the_wes

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #101 on: January 25, 2012, 02:32:03 pm »
We wouldnt have had this discussion if BMW beefed up the front forks, made the tank 22liters, and got rid of that farking ridiculous headlight.

The Dakkie is a proven design in it's market segment, but you HAVE to innovate, even if you re-launch an old model.

Then you can charge R90k for it and no-one will complain.

Slapping new plastics on is nice, but for us that know a thing or two about bikes, it's not enough.

But it will be a hit with first-time buyers because of price, heritage and after-sales service.





You are right - we'd be having a very different discussion. Everybody would be lambasting BMW for putting a R90k price tag on a single  :deal:

Everyone has a gripe - except those that actually own or have owned a Dakar  :imaposer:

Agree with both.

But the bike is aimed at first time buyers... for people that know a thing or two about bikes, know they'll need to farkle it.

everyone bitches about suspension - but of the 100 people that bitch about the dakar's suspension - 10 people will maybe buy it. of those 10 people - 1 will ride it in such a way that the suspension reaches its limits. that 1 person can then spend the extra 15k to sort it out  :pot:

besides, to be quite honest, if you find yourself reaching the maximum of a bike's ability you have bought the wrong bike. the day I realised my Dakar couldn't do what I wanted it to, I changed bikes and was happy - but then I did a trippie on my XChallenge and I missed the comfort of the Dakar a bit. No bike will do it all, how many times must it be said?

having said that, yes, you could fault the Dakar's weight and nicer suspension would be great... but why are dual sport riders prepared to spend thousands to get a more stripped down DS bike (like a KTM 690) to a more tour friendly setup, but not prepared to spend the same on a porky pie like the dakar to make it more aggro?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 02:33:53 pm by the_wes »
 

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #102 on: January 25, 2012, 02:55:37 pm »
We wouldnt have had this discussion if BMW beefed up the front forks, made the tank 22liters, and got rid of that farking ridiculous headlight.

The Dakkie is a proven design in it's market segment, but you HAVE to innovate, even if you re-launch an old model.

Then you can charge R90k for it and no-one will complain.

Slapping new plastics on is nice, but for us that know a thing or two about bikes, it's not enough.

But it will be a hit with first-time buyers because of price, heritage and after-sales service.





You are right - we'd be having a very different discussion. Everybody would be lambasting BMW for putting a R90k price tag on a single  :deal:

Everyone has a gripe - except those that actually own or have owned a Dakar  :imaposer:

Agree with both.

But the bike is aimed at first time buyers... for people that know a thing or two about bikes, know they'll need to farkle it.

everyone bitches about suspension - but of the 100 people that bitch about the dakar's suspension - 10 people will maybe buy it. of those 10 people - 1 will ride it in such a way that the suspension reaches its limits. that 1 person can then spend the extra 15k to sort it out  :pot:

besides, to be quite honest, if you find yourself reaching the maximum of a bike's ability you have bought the wrong bike. the day I realised my Dakar couldn't do what I wanted it to, I changed bikes and was happy - but then I did a trippie on my XChallenge and I missed the comfort of the Dakar a bit. No bike will do it all, how many times must it be said?

having said that, yes, you could fault the Dakar's weight and nicer suspension would be great... but why are dual sport riders prepared to spend thousands to get a more stripped down DS bike (like a KTM 690) to a more tour friendly setup, but not prepared to spend the same on a porky pie like the dakar to make it more aggro?
Spot on Wes :thumleft:
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Offline nemodakar

Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #103 on: January 25, 2012, 03:02:24 pm »
It's amazing how many people are standing in line to have a go at the Dakar. How many has actually ridden, or in the least , owned one?

The Wes nailed it. It is a very under estimated bike and very few can actually ask more than it can give. If applied for the proper purpose.

Pity BM did not use this chance to make the odd upgrade.
 

Offline the_wes

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #104 on: January 25, 2012, 03:07:18 pm »
Pity BM did not use this chance to make the odd upgrade.

well, the engine for one is an upgrade. but yeah, they could have done a bit more i guess.

what bugs me MORE is what's coming out of husqvarna's stable at the moment in the way of concept bikes......
 

Offline alanB

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #105 on: January 25, 2012, 03:17:12 pm »
Quote
Everyone has a gripe

Ja thats because I (and I suspect many others) expect a lot from BMW, they are the gorillas in the market place, they shouldn't be serving up left overs, just because they know people will buy them!

Its self defeatist to say OK the suspension needs upgrading but not everyone will use the improvements to their full extent so its OK for BMW not to address that in the new model etc.  

But anyway no point in arguing - I sold mine long ago  :ricky:
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Offline bonova

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #106 on: January 25, 2012, 04:15:09 pm »
We wouldnt have had this discussion if BMW beefed up the front forks, made the tank 22liters, and got rid of that farking ridiculous headlight.

The Dakkie is a proven design in it's market segment, but you HAVE to innovate, even if you re-launch an old model.

Then you can charge R90k for it and no-one will complain.

Slapping new plastics on is nice, but for us that know a thing or two about bikes, it's not enough.

But it will be a hit with first-time buyers because of price, heritage and after-sales service.





You are right - we'd be having a very different discussion. Everybody would be lambasting BMW for putting a R90k price tag on a single  :deal:

Everyone has a gripe - except those that actually own or have owned a Dakar  :imaposer:

Agree with both.

But the bike is aimed at first time buyers... for people that know a thing or two about bikes, know they'll need to farkle it.

everyone bitches about suspension - but of the 100 people that bitch about the dakar's suspension - 10 people will maybe buy it. of those 10 people - 1 will ride it in such a way that the suspension reaches its limits. that 1 person can then spend the extra 15k to sort it out  :pot:

besides, to be quite honest, if you find yourself reaching the maximum of a bike's ability you have bought the wrong bike. the day I realised my Dakar couldn't do what I wanted it to, I changed bikes and was happy - but then I did a trippie on my XChallenge and I missed the comfort of the Dakar a bit. No bike will do it all, how many times must it be said?

having said that, yes, you could fault the Dakar's weight and nicer suspension would be great... but why are dual sport riders prepared to spend thousands to get a more stripped down DS bike (like a KTM 690) to a more tour friendly setup, but not prepared to spend the same on a porky pie like the dakar to make it more aggro?
and then we took that Dakar of yours (unchanged - and on 30000km i think) and beat it to a pulp over 15000km of harsh roads through southern africa and lots count of the number of falls and HARD crashes, including one that ended in a broken foot for the owner, and it gave no serious problems at all, rode all the fesh-fesh and sand and mud and rocks, carried all the weight...etc etc.
So i agree: It has it's short comings, but It's plenty capable  :thumleft:
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Offline Adventurer

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #107 on: January 25, 2012, 04:30:31 pm »
Love it or hate it, the BMW 650 GS single cylinder was bullet proof, the weapon of choice for Trans Africa trips, very economical, and tough. Yes, it a few issues, but only one with the potential to leave you stranded, the water pump gears.
Yes, it is relatively heavy, but how many actually use it in such a way that weight is an issue? The popularity of this bike before it was discontinued says a lot about how good they are. There is only one other real option for Trans Africa trips, the Yamaha Tenere Z, and that is mainly because of it's bigger fuel tank.
This issue of the supposed 14L tank, the specs say 14L standing, but I'm assuming that excludes the 3L reserve, making it 17L, the same as the previous models....but lets wait and see, it is being relaunched later in February.

 ;D :D I think I sense Adventurer actually feeling a bit
 sorry for BMW.  :imaposer: For a KTM nut - Good on ya!

Haha, you know me, I say it as it is, BMW do really make fantastic bikes, all depends what is required of them, often the wrong people have the wrong expectation of a bike, then say it is a kak bike, there are no kak bikes, there are just some that are more suited to a specific task than others, I don't ride a KTM because I think it is the best bike, it is just the best at what I want from a bike.
The Dakar is a legend IMO, yes it has certain weaknesses, but all bikes have weaknesses somewhere, yes, BMW could have done something with this or that with the revised 2012 version, but hey, why mess with something that works?
If I had to choose a trans - continent 2012 brand new bike, it would be a tough choice between the Dakar and the Tenere Z....
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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #108 on: January 25, 2012, 04:49:14 pm »
hey you forgeting the KLR  :pot:
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Offline Adventurer

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #109 on: January 25, 2012, 04:53:40 pm »
hey you forgeting the KLR  :pot:

Personally I would not consider the KLR, not that it would not do the distance, I would just not use it.
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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #110 on: January 25, 2012, 05:21:53 pm »
I still can't see the point in paying double the price of an XR or DR and getting nothing extra. Eight years ago I decided to try this dual sport thing and the obvious first port of call was Donfords BMW who gladly gave me a Dakar to take home and test. At the traffic light just beyond Donfords I almost fell over (see top heavy wide bike). The bike felt slow with scary cornering habits , so I popped in at Baas Attie up the road for a second opinion. We went through the bike and were disappointed by he poor finishes like cheap fasteners, cheap sprockets and chain, dodgy handlebars etc on an upmarket priced bike. Landed up with an XT660 (great bike ,460000kms in 2 years trouble free ) before a mate gave me a ride on a 950S.  Oh and after an hour with the Dakar I took it back a day early... Nuff said
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Offline Kaboef

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #111 on: January 25, 2012, 05:45:38 pm »
I still can't see the point in paying double the price of an XR or DR and getting nothing extra. 

Not quite double.

And if you feel OK to compare air-cooled, carb-feb motors with water-cooled EFI motors, I can see why you dont see where the extra money went.
Not to mention vastly better brakes, ABS (if that's your thing) heated grips, excellent seat, OEM luggage options, comfort, technology, etc.

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #112 on: January 25, 2012, 07:04:39 pm »
I still can't see the point in paying double the price of an XR or DR and getting nothing extra. 

Not quite double.

And if you feel OK to compare air-cooled, carb-feb motors with water-cooled EFI motors, I can see why you dont see where the extra money went.
Not to mention vastly better brakes, ABS (if that's your thing) heated grips, excellent seat, OEM luggage options, comfort, technology, etc.




Kaboef, why then is BMW's 1200 GSA more expensive than the Sten?
 

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #113 on: January 25, 2012, 07:13:55 pm »
I still can't see the point in paying double the price of an XR or DR and getting nothing extra. 

Not quite double.

And if you feel OK to compare air-cooled, carb-feb motors with water-cooled EFI motors, I can see why you dont see where the extra money went.
Not to mention vastly better brakes, ABS (if that's your thing) heated grips, excellent seat, OEM luggage options, comfort, technology, etc.




Kaboef, why then is BMW's 1200 GSA more expensive than the Sten?

You should compasre the STEn price with the GS, not the GSA....and it's price has gone up....not good IMO.
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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #114 on: January 25, 2012, 07:15:28 pm »
Waars Michnus?  :peepwall:  :pot:
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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #115 on: January 25, 2012, 07:15:46 pm »
The Dakar/Sertao is undoubtedly a very reliable workhorse, with very good[excellent] touring capability as far as the singles go. BUT, the BMW is basically a light make-over of an exsisting model, with a long production run behind it. The 660Z is a all-new design. To price the BM at the same level as the XTZ is certainly hoping that BMW fans are still blind.
The XR650L does [should not even feature here, it is a South American model with lower standard of finishing and an ashtmatic 32horsepower. What uncorking are you talking about that will allow this Honda to run with the others? Cannot be done.
 

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #116 on: January 25, 2012, 07:24:51 pm »
I still can't see the point in paying double the price of an XR or DR and getting nothing extra. 

Not quite double.

And if you feel OK to compare air-cooled, carb-feb motors with water-cooled EFI motors, I can see why you dont see where the extra money went.
Not to mention vastly better brakes, ABS (if that's your thing) heated grips, excellent seat, OEM luggage options, comfort, technology, etc.




Kaboef, why then is BMW's 1200 GSA more expensive than the Sten?

Where in my post did I mention a 1200GSA or a Sten?   :dontknow:

A bit early in the evening for the strong stuff, Danie.   :nono:
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Offline RedWolf

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #117 on: January 25, 2012, 08:02:45 pm »
I still can't see the point in paying double the price of an XR or DR and getting nothing extra. Eight years ago I decided to try this dual sport thing and the obvious first port of call was Donfords BMW who gladly gave me a Dakar to take home and test. At the traffic light just beyond Donfords I almost fell over (see top heavy wide bike). The bike felt slow with scary cornering habits , so I popped in at Baas Attie up the road for a second opinion. We went through the bike and were disappointed by he poor finishes like cheap fasteners, cheap sprockets and chain, dodgy handlebars etc on an upmarket priced bike. Landed up with an XT660 (great bike ,460000kms in 2 years trouble free ) before a mate gave me a ride on a 950S.  Oh and after an hour with the Dakar I took it back a day early... Nuff said

WOW, 460,000km on a xt660. well done :thumleft:
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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #118 on: January 25, 2012, 08:03:52 pm »
I still can't see the point in paying double the price of an XR or DR and getting nothing extra. Eight years ago I decided to try this dual sport thing and the obvious first port of call was Donfords BMW who gladly gave me a Dakar to take home and test. At the traffic light just beyond Donfords I almost fell over (see top heavy wide bike). The bike felt slow with scary cornering habits , so I popped in at Baas Attie up the road for a second opinion. We went through the bike and were disappointed by he poor finishes like cheap fasteners, cheap sprockets and chain, dodgy handlebars etc on an upmarket priced bike. Landed up with an XT660 (great bike ,460000kms in 2 years trouble free ) before a mate gave me a ride on a 950S.  Oh and after an hour with the Dakar I took it back a day early... Nuff said

WOW, 460,000km on a xt660. well done :thumleft:

in 2 years nogal  :deal:
 

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Re: Sooo, the Dakar is back, renamed, revamped...now the Sertao
« Reply #119 on: January 25, 2012, 08:05:51 pm »
I still can't see the point in paying double the price of an XR or DR and getting nothing extra. Eight years ago I decided to try this dual sport thing and the obvious first port of call was Donfords BMW who gladly gave me a Dakar to take home and test. At the traffic light just beyond Donfords I almost fell over (see top heavy wide bike). The bike felt slow with scary cornering habits , so I popped in at Baas Attie up the road for a second opinion. We went through the bike and were disappointed by he poor finishes like cheap fasteners, cheap sprockets and chain, dodgy handlebars etc on an upmarket priced bike. Landed up with an XT660 (great bike ,460000kms in 2 years trouble free ) before a mate gave me a ride on a 950S.  Oh and after an hour with the Dakar I took it back a day early... Nuff said

WOW, 460,000km on a xt660. well done :thumleft:

in 2 years nogal  :deal:
Ja, probably slept on the bike aswell because he spent alot of time in that seat.. :imaposer:
Trust that little voice in your head that says 'Wouldn't it be interesting if...'; And then do it.