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Author Topic: R1200GSA erratic idle, misfire, pre-ignition, detonation, ping, knock and stall  (Read 18306 times)

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Offline Duke916

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Yup,  poep teen donnerweer. Peuter eerder self aan jou bike as jy kan of kry n privaat ou wat spesialiseer op jou bike . Daai appy wat die verstellings doen jaag meer kak aan as wat jy met jou 10 duime ooit sal kan, want jy is nie windgat en dink daars niks meer wat iemand jou kan leer. Daai fout is 10 teen 1  n klein probleem en jy moet net gaan sit en soos n forensiese speurder na die bewys stukke kyk  :mwink:  My bike is ook lean en ek wag net vir my Wunderlich om te kom , ek wil niks van die agente he behalwe parte en beter pryse  :pot:
Then : RD50  550 Four  900F   CBX  CBX Prolink XL 500 XR 500  CR 450  MTX 200  916 BIP

Now :  1100RC  R100 RT    1098  RGV 250  KTM 495  R 1200GS ADV    KLR650
 

Offline ceasar

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Goose, while you are busy with those oke who claim they are working on a new feuling map for the boxers, will you keep us up to date on this?

I might have a few questions along the way... :mwink:

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Offline CandyMan_ZA

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You will fail (as in give up)! Some time. Unfortunately :(

Not me, I have the power of the people on my side  :3some:
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline Spike

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This was in reply to a Face Book comment that was suggesting Kevin's riding style was at fault and that he should listen to the experts that say there is nothing wrong. The comment has since been removed.

"I am familiar with the problems Kevin is having with his bike. It does not idle smoothly and, more worrying, it miss-fires during gear changes. That misfire sounds (and feels) like pre-ignition to me (and to everyone else Kevin has asked).
I agree with Kevin that this is not correct. I disagree with the 'experts' that say it is.
As for operating the machine in question I would say that Kevin is indeed an expert. He is one of the most experienced riders I have ever met. He has also owned more GSs than the majority of BMW mechanics and ridden hundreds of thousands of kilometers on them. 
To compare Kevin's experience riding the faulty machine every day with a mechanics opinion after the mechanic has ridden it round the block (you did ride it didn't you?) would be silly.
The fact that the 'expert' computer analysis is not picking this problem up does not mean that Kevin has gone mad and forgotten how to ride a bike. It means that the computer analysis is not picking up the problem! Move on. Fix it.
If this pre-ignition while blipping the throttle on a fast gear change is indeed a new BMW feature that has never before been implemented I'm quite sure it would be mentioned in the manual. It's not. It's a new bike so fix it or replace it.
If the new 1200GS is really are all installed with this 'feature' on purpose I for one won't be upgrading my 1200GSA."
"
 

Offline dscholtz

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I cannot believe that BMW would put a product on the market that is as bad as this!  I have tested Kevin's bike, own his old 2007 proudly, and also tested all the other quad valve bikes he test rode......

I am not a bike specialist, I am in IT, but believe you me I know engines and I've been "through" a few, there is something big wrong with these engines, they are going to break one by one and probably out of warranty.  If I bought this bike, I would have returned it to BMW to fix or money back!

I expect German precision from my BMW!!!!!

Dirk
 

Offline Goose

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I cannot believe that BMW would put a product on the market that is as bad as this!  I have tested Kevin's bike, own his old 2007 proudly, and also tested all the other quad valve bikes he test rode......

I am not a bike specialist, I am in IT, but believe you me I know engines and I've been "through" a few, there is something big wrong with these engines, they are going to break one by one and probably out of warranty.  If I bought this bike, I would have returned it to BMW to fix or money back!

I expect German precision from my BMW!!!!!

Dirk


Been there - tried this - got a box of T-shirts............  maybe they will listen when someone is killed.......?

Have a read............ http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=100932.msg1971944#msg1971944
"Life is a Waste of Time..... Time is a Waste of Life........ Get Wasted all the Time and have the Time of your Life"  ‹(•¿•)›
 

Offline CandyMan_ZA

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Have a read............ http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=100932.msg1971944#msg1971944

Hi Goose, BMW must fix their sh1t, why must we keep paying for aftermarket fixes, the people have spoken!  :protest:
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline Goose

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Have a read............ http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=100932.msg1971944#msg1971944

Hi Goose, BMW must fix their sh1t, why must we keep paying for aftermarket fixes, the people have spoken!  :protest:

+ 1000000000 I agree and will back the fight 100%   ..........  BMW-SA does not give a toss about their clients - that is clear....... so let's get the social medai, Consumer lawyers, radio stations etc. to start digging!

I've lived by the statement that "a product is ONLY as good as the service and support it receives from the suppliers"  .............. 
"Life is a Waste of Time..... Time is a Waste of Life........ Get Wasted all the Time and have the Time of your Life"  ‹(•¿•)›
 

Offline Brandt

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Have a read............ http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=100932.msg1971944#msg1971944

Hi Goose, BMW must fix their sh1t, why must we keep paying for aftermarket fixes, the people have spoken!  :protest:

+ 1000000000 I agree and will back the fight 100%   ..........  BMW-SA does not give a toss about their clients - that is clear....... so let's get the social medai, Consumer lawyers, radio stations etc. to start digging!

I've lived by the statement that "a product is ONLY as good as the service and support it receives from the suppliers"  .............. 
What about setting-up a petition to BMW??
 

Offline CandyMan_ZA

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What about setting-up a petition to BMW??

I like it!  :deal:
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline lecap

What about setting-up a petition to BMW??

I like it!  :deal:


Was it in "The mansions of the Gods"? ::)
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Offline CandyMan_ZA

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This was a response I received from an extremely helpful ECU software engineer in Sweden after he saw my post on another forum. He decided to investigate. He was able to also reproduce the erratic idle condition on his 2010 GSA. He provided me with some graphs of exactly what is happening inside the engine at the time. It makes for some rather interesting analysis and discussion. I don't however know if this is what is happening when I blip the throttle and the engine stalls, it may be another issue altogether? I have asked if he is able to reproduce this as well and if so to also provide these same graphs.

These graphs were extracted from a GS-911 Emergency Diagnostic tool.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32457891/R1200GSA_DOHC_Idle.pdf

This is absolute confirmation that I have not gone mad, there is something very interesting happening and most likely with all the R1200GS motorcycles.

The following is the description as received from f00gami.


I think you might be on to several issues at once with your bike. Some might or might not be related to the local fuel quality or possibly a bad component on your bike. What really caught my attention was the fact that your managed to reproduce the “erratic idle” behavior on multiple bikes, including the yellow 2012 loaner.

I myself own a 2010 R1200GSA which runs great and shows no signs of misfires/pinging, stalling or bad behavior when blipping the throttle. However, today I decided to subject my bike to the same procedure as you do in your youtube clips i.e. opening the throttle grip just very slightly past the point of resistance...  :eek:

The outcome was very much the same as yours; very soon the idle got erratic and the engine was close to stalling on several occasions. Once I released the throttle grip, the idle stabilized.

Using the GS-911 I recorded some engine parameters during two cases; 1) Normal undisturbed idling and 2) Idling with throttle grip very slightly open. Please see this PDF-file for the measurement graphs.

Page 1 shows the undisturbed idle – note that all parameters are stable (except lambda voltage, which exhibits normal closed-loop behavior).

Page 2 shows what happens as the throttle grip is opened very slightly. Note that…
Lambda voltage quickly bottoms out -> indication of a leaner mixture
The idle stepper motors (which control the amount of air allowed to bypass the throttle plate) soon bottom out at 0.
The throttle position sensor (TPS) constantly indicates fully closed throttle, even though applying pressure to the throttle grip surely will cause the throttle plate to open slightly.
At t=110s, the idle steppers have bottomed out and engine speed starts fluctuating heavily – engine is close to stalling.
My conclusion is that the erratic idle issue which occurs with prolonged small throttle grip openings is caused by the idle speed control logic of BMS-K (engine control) becoming unstable. While applying pressure to the throttle grip, you are letting a bit more air into the engine. As our bikes have no Air Mass Meter, BMS-K must estimate the amount of air entering the engine from engine speed and throttle plate position (the TPS signal). However, as the TPS does not seem to register this very minute movement of the throttle plate, the system has no idea of what you are doing and cannot adjust fueling and ignition timing accordingly. Hence you have effectively created an intake air leak.

As more air enters the engine, the average idle speed starts rising ever so slowly (and the mixture goes lean). The idle steppers will react to the increase in engine speed and start compensating to bring the idle back to 1150 rpm. Once the steppers bottom out, the BMS-K regulator goes unstable.

In this respect I assume you could argue that BMW is right in saying that this is “in line with the character” of our bikes, as every DOHC R1200 will exhibit this behavior (if I’m right). However, this should not be the reason for the other issues you mention such as pinging and engine stalling during throttle blips.
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline Goose

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Kevin - I saw the response. it's actually a relief and really nice not to get the general BMW owner's giving crappy and negative responses. At last someone that will investigate and actually take the time to see what the issue could be. Well done.

Now lets start taking them on.  My GSA is due for it's annual service........ so lets see what they say!
"Life is a Waste of Time..... Time is a Waste of Life........ Get Wasted all the Time and have the Time of your Life"  ‹(•¿•)›
 

Offline CandyMan_ZA

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it's actually a relief and really nice not to get the general BMW owner's giving crappy and negative responses.

 :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Online katana

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Hi Guys.

OK, if I reason this correctly, it seems as if the butterfly connected to the cable opens a smidgen before the TPS - most likely some kind of variable resistor setup - gets to register a change.  Similar to a twin carb setup on a single where there is a delay - slack - before carb two open its butterfly.

This would seem adjustable somehow as not all DOHC's exhibit this behaviour - or to varying degrees.  

Does someone have have access to schematics that could verify if there is adjustment to the butterflies?  Could it be that simple??  
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Offline wrench

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it's actually a relief and really nice not to get the general BMW owner's giving crappy and negative responses.

 :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

Kevin, do us a favour and disconnect your lambda probes and do the same tests you have done and see if anything changes.
 

Offline CandyMan_ZA

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Kevin, do us a favour and disconnect your lambda probes and do the same tests you have done and see if anything changes.

I will do wrench, I just hope the boys in blue don't accuse me of something and then void the warranty  :deal:
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline Goose

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Kevin, do us a favour and disconnect your lambda probes and do the same tests you have done and see if anything changes.

I will do wrench, I just hope the boys in blue don't accuse me of something and then void the warranty  :deal:



Naaa.......  when with Wrench, we did same to my GSA - MOERSE difference matey. actually rode like that until I eventually sold the bike.  Called my mate - he did same on his GSA....  came home with a moerse smile saying it was really smooth!

Would be ok to do the test like that...........  Wrench sorry matey - totally forgot that one  :thumleft:
"Life is a Waste of Time..... Time is a Waste of Life........ Get Wasted all the Time and have the Time of your Life"  ‹(•¿•)›
 

Offline CandyMan_ZA

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Kevin, do us a favour and disconnect your lambda probes and do the same tests you have done and see if anything changes.
I will do wrench, I just hope the boys in blue don't accuse me of something and then void the warranty  :deal:

ok, lambda connections unplugged, same slightly 'off-idle' and blip test done. Results below. I can add that although I could not get it to stall it still idled erratically at slightly off-idle and did ping/knock slightly (difficult to hear in the video). I can also add, I have 65ml of octane booster mixed with 10 litres of 95 unleaded in the tank as well.  :dontknow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V5Ho9C5fbs&feature=youtu.be
/\/¯¯¯¯¯\/\ R1200GS-WP LC
 

Offline wrench

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Ok, so the detonation is still there after the lambda has been disconnected ??? but the stalling has been improved ??? ??? I still reckon it is a bad lean area but we can confirm tomorrow. Yesterday I had the previous model GSA in the shop with seriaas fuel consumption and detonation issues and again it all leads back to the same issue.

We found that from ice cold the engine temperature and the intake air temperature increased together at the same rate, engine temp then settles and IAT keeps climbing until the sensor maxes out. Now the ECU doesn't know wtf to do.....because of the high IAT it starts leaning out but then get's lean lambda signal and starts richening up, you can imagine this bike is a nightmare to ride.

We did a compression test and it was fair enough, proceeded to do a leak down test, the left bank had a 50% leak down and the right 30%. This indicated either tight valve clearances or worn valves and seats and I'am of the impression it's the latter. The engine breather comes from the left cyl. head to the airbox routing the hot air to the IAT. The worn or tight valve is letting the hot air/fuel escape from the combustion chamber back into the airbox and there is also a fair amount of fuel stand off in the airbox and pipes to the throttle bodies....Sticky ISC!!

All this kak is happening because combustion chamber temperatures are abnormally high due to lean A/F mix and will cause accelerated valve, piston and ring wear.
shows a normal sort of flame, I would think stoichmetric AFR would be twice as hot if not more and this AFR is what BM uses up to 80% TP. BTW the GSA I had yesterday, had an AFR of 15.6....seriously lean.