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Offline Sláinte Mhaith

Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2013, 11:06:03 am »
No, that would be a traffic violation and cost you R500

Vehicle with a number plate not clearly legible or visible  - Reg. 35(2)(e) R500

Traffic violation if you run into a traffic cop.

If SANRAL makes a case for non-compliance as per the E-tag bill then it is another issue. Summons to go to court and whatever follows?

We will have to wait and see what will happen if this ever happens.
First Sanral have to figure out who you are which is difficult without a number plate on the images.
Maybe they link one image with a plate to another without or they catch you in the act. Then the police need to make a case beyond reasonable doubt.
Even if it goes this far then what is the fine/consequences etc.

Thinking out loud here.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 11:06:27 am by Sláinte Mhaith »
 

Offline alanB

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #101 on: December 12, 2013, 12:34:04 pm »
No, that would be a traffic violation and cost you R500

Vehicle with a number plate not clearly legible or visible  - Reg. 35(2)(e) R500

Traffic violation if you run into a traffic cop.

If SANRAL makes a case for non-compliance as per the E-tag bill then it is another issue. Summons to go to court and whatever follows?

We will have to wait and see what will happen if this ever happens.
First Sanral have to figure out who you are which is difficult without a number plate on the images.
Maybe they link one image with a plate to another without or they catch you in the act. Then the police need to make a case beyond reasonable doubt.
Even if it goes this far then what is the fine/consequences etc.

Thinking out loud here.

I don't see how the penalties would be any worse than the existing penalties for fiddling with your number plate.  And if they are their constitutionality needs to be tested.

I've also wondered about some sort of facial recognition type algorithm applied to the car so the software "recognises your car" - but while its perfectly possible, I think the computing required in each case is probably impractical, plus the legalities of proving it is in fact your car beyond doubt probably makes it not worth while.

Plus it remains to be seen how enthusiastically our staunch defenders of the peace enforce the new law.  Anything which means they actually have get off their arses and which cant be quickly turned into a suggestion for a bribe, doesn't seem to really interest them.  Look at how many people ride around now without plates. 
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Offline DouglasN

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #102 on: December 12, 2013, 01:31:21 pm »
A guy was just arrested in a car on the east rand for having a NO- e-toll sticker on part of his number plate.

arrested by JMPD and taken to an e-toll gantry to wait for sanral guys.

Was then let go.

no sure of how much of late was obscured, will see if a pic comes through.
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Offline alanB

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #103 on: December 12, 2013, 01:34:41 pm »
A guy was just arrested in a car on the east rand for having a NO- e-toll sticker on part of his number plate.

arrested by JMPD and taken to an e-toll gantry to wait for sanral guys.

Was then let go.

no sure of how much of late was obscured, will see if a pic comes through.

Interesting.

Have you got any links or more details?  We need to pass this sort of info on to OUTA.

If they just let him go, was it because they didn't have a case and were just intimidating him hoping to get a bribe?  Its a sad fact that you cant trust the cops these days.
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Offline Bundu

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #104 on: December 12, 2013, 01:40:12 pm »
a list of number plate related fines and highlighted in RED, the things that are criminal and no fine is issued, but a summons

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit

Offline alanB

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #105 on: December 12, 2013, 01:45:25 pm »
a list of number plate related fines and highlighted in RED, the things that are criminal and no fine is issued, but a summons

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit

Thanks - good info.
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Offline DouglasN

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #106 on: December 12, 2013, 01:47:42 pm »
a list of number plate related fines and highlighted in RED, the things that are criminal and no fine is issued, but a summons

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit

https://www.facebook.com/groups/355014721265678/


number plate was somewhat obscured
was arrested by JMPD
was taken to SARAL gantry to wait for SANRAL commisioner

seems nobody knew what to do and eventually just released him.
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Offline Bundu

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #107 on: December 12, 2013, 02:01:34 pm »
a list of number plate related fines and highlighted in RED, the things that are criminal and no fine is issued, but a summons

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6ug81Jpe2q-Y3gwM0ptWGF5Zk0/edit

https://www.facebook.com/groups/355014721265678/


number plate was somewhat obscured
was arrested by JMPD
was taken to SARAL gantry to wait for SANRAL commisioner

seems nobody knew what to do and eventually just released him.

we need some lawyers to start wrongful arrest cases

Offline alanB

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #108 on: December 12, 2013, 02:06:30 pm »
Just sent the following message to OUTA

Quote
Hi

Just thought I would pass some info on to you guys about someone arrested by the metro police and taken to the nearest gantry and then let go.

"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/355014721265678/

number plate was somewhat obscured
was arrested by JMPD
was taken to SARAL gantry to wait for SANRAL commisioner

seems nobody knew what to do and eventually just released him."

Can you please confirm whether they are entitled to do that?

What is a "SANRAL Commisioner", what powers does he have?

What would you advise motorists to do in these circumstances?

Regards
Alan

Will post their reply here if I get one.
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Offline growweblaar

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2013, 02:32:17 pm »
I work for a company that develops custom Computer Vision systems. I haven't worked on ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition), but I can tell you that commercial ANPR algorithms are seriously advanced and can deal with a a high margin of noise and error.

That said, the first step in the multi-stage process, is image segmentation or "localization", which attempts to isolate your plate in the image. I'm not sure how sophisticated this algorithm is in the specific system used by eToll, but something like the van showed earlier would certainly make it work harder and, perhaps, make mistakes:



The Character Segmentation step can deal with a fair amount of error (e.g. slightly obscured, broken, faded or dirt on letters), but at some point it will fail, e.g. if you always ride with your bicycle partly obscuring your plate (maybe someone should make very lightweight, fake cycles that you can stick on permanently ;D ).

Some systems use infrared (IR) cameras, sometimes in addition to normal cameras. IR cameras can be jammed by installing an array of bright IR LEDs around your plate. Of course, these are invisible to the naked eye. It would be very useful to know if the eToll system uses IR.

I don't have info on the specific system, but from knowledge of the field, I can tell you with 99.9% certainty that no commercial system will be able to recognize the license disk travelling at 120km/h in your window.
 

Offline DouglasN

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #110 on: December 12, 2013, 02:40:40 pm »
UPDATE!!!!

George was driving by the Olifantsfontein intersection when an EMPD vehicle waved him over. There were 2 cops. 1st cop ' Do you know about your number plate'? George says no whilst walking to the back and says it was a prank on his wife's car. The cop then attempts to pull the entire plate off and George stopped him saying just take the sticker off, which George did. Cop 2 takes it from George and replaces it saying you can't do that and that he must follow them to SANRAL toll booth and speak to the SANRAL commissioner to see what to do.

George drives to the SANRAL toll and goes into the building - cops don't follow. He gets in and demands to see the Commissioner - so they call him. Then the cops walk in. George tells them to take a seat as he has already called the Commissioner - they then respond with 'why did you do that?' we actually mean our commissioner and we have called him. George says 'You said you had to speak to SANRAL to see what to do so bring your commissioner too , let's have a conference'. .

He asks the guy from SANRAL if it is illegal not to have an etag and he says no it is not.

While waiting George decides to take a walk to the ENGEN garage to buy a colddrink and as he is walking the SANRAL guy and cops call him - he turns around and asks what and if he is e under arrest, to which they then wave him off. When he returns they have all GONE!

He walks to his car takes the sticker off and puts it in his boot. As he exits the ENGEN garage the EMPD wait just at side of on ramp. They pull him over AGAIN. The commissioner then asks if he had a sticker on and he said yes, it's in the boot. He also says that the cops who pulled him over didn't know what to do.

The cop said that he can put anti e-toll stickers anywhere except over the plate and to have a nice day.

It appears they realised they had made a mistake and probably didn't think George would go into the SANRAL office and then thought to catch him again on way out.
-----------------------
Douglas Norval
 

Offline alanB

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #111 on: December 12, 2013, 02:54:41 pm »
UPDATE!!!!

George was driving by the Olifantsfontein intersection when an EMPD vehicle waved him over. There were 2 cops. 1st cop ' Do you know about your number plate'? George says no whilst walking to the back and says it was a prank on his wife's car. The cop then attempts to pull the entire plate off and George stopped him saying just take the sticker off, which George did. Cop 2 takes it from George and replaces it saying you can't do that and that he must follow them to SANRAL toll booth and speak to the SANRAL commissioner to see what to do.

George drives to the SANRAL toll and goes into the building - cops don't follow. He gets in and demands to see the Commissioner - so they call him. Then the cops walk in. George tells them to take a seat as he has already called the Commissioner - they then respond with 'why did you do that?' we actually mean our commissioner and we have called him. George says 'You said you had to speak to SANRAL to see what to do so bring your commissioner too , let's have a conference'. .

He asks the guy from SANRAL if it is illegal not to have an etag and he says no it is not.

While waiting George decides to take a walk to the ENGEN garage to buy a colddrink and as he is walking the SANRAL guy and cops call him - he turns around and asks what and if he is e under arrest, to which they then wave him off. When he returns they have all GONE!

He walks to his car takes the sticker off and puts it in his boot. As he exits the ENGEN garage the EMPD wait just at side of on ramp. They pull him over AGAIN. The commissioner then asks if he had a sticker on and he said yes, it's in the boot. He also says that the cops who pulled him over didn't know what to do.

The cop said that he can put anti e-toll stickers anywhere except over the plate and to have a nice day.

It appears they realised they had made a mistake and probably didn't think George would go into the SANRAL office and then thought to catch him again on way out.

Sounds like pure intimidation to me!

They were just hoping he would make some sort of offer to get them off his back.  Looks like some of the Metro cops have seized upon people's fear of what might happen and are milking it.  It doesn't sound like there is any basis in law for what they were doing.  If there was why not just write out the appropriate fine or summons?  Why the big rigmarole of taking him somewhere else?

What really pisses me off is you hear more and more stories like this about the cops - blatantly inventing "crimes" and then getting really aggressive with the public in an attempt to get some sort of a bribe.  Their management cant be oblivious to to the problem but dont seem to be inclined to do anything about it.

IMO this had nothing to do with etolls and everything to do with police corruption.

I REALLY wish one of the lawyers here help out with some advice on what to do in the various situations.  It would be a massive help.
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Offline alanB

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #112 on: December 12, 2013, 02:55:25 pm »
I work for a company that develops custom Computer Vision systems. I haven't worked on ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition), but I can tell you that commercial ANPR algorithms are seriously advanced and can deal with a a high margin of noise and error.

That said, the first step in the multi-stage process, is image segmentation or "localization", which attempts to isolate your plate in the image. I'm not sure how sophisticated this algorithm is in the specific system used by eToll, but something like the van showed earlier would certainly make it work harder and, perhaps, make mistakes:



The Character Segmentation step can deal with a fair amount of error (e.g. slightly obscured, broken, faded or dirt on letters), but at some point it will fail, e.g. if you always ride with your bicycle partly obscuring your plate (maybe someone should make very lightweight, fake cycles that you can stick on permanently ;D ).

Some systems use infrared (IR) cameras, sometimes in addition to normal cameras. IR cameras can be jammed by installing an array of bright IR LEDs around your plate. Of course, these are invisible to the naked eye. It would be very useful to know if the eToll system uses IR.

I don't have info on the specific system, but from knowledge of the field, I can tell you with 99.9% certainty that no commercial system will be able to recognize the license disk travelling at 120km/h in your window.

Thanks thats good info  :thumleft:

I think I need to get a few more stickers!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 02:56:20 pm by alanB »
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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #113 on: December 12, 2013, 07:24:10 pm »
What are the Scumral officers powers? Do i have to stop ? On who's authority?
 

Offline knightrat

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #114 on: December 12, 2013, 07:51:16 pm »
 

Offline Bundu

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #115 on: December 12, 2013, 08:03:06 pm »
What are the Scumral officers powers? Do i have to stop ? On who's authority?

AFAIK they have been given the same authority as normal traffic cops, but they can only enforce the AARTO laws

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #116 on: December 12, 2013, 08:14:47 pm »
Power of arrest too?

So its now ok to contract law enforcement out to privately own firms?
 

Offline Bundu

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #117 on: December 12, 2013, 08:17:52 pm »
Power of arrest too?

So its now ok to contract law enforcement out to privately own firms?

I think so, but you must remember there are very few instances where they can arrest you - I'm hoping OUTA will soon have their defiance pack ready and it should contain all our rights

Offline Bundu

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #118 on: December 12, 2013, 08:19:47 pm »
ping AlanB

maybe we should start a thread with various questions that we need conclusive answers to?

Offline alanB

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Re: Know your enemy
« Reply #119 on: December 12, 2013, 08:28:39 pm »
ping AlanB

maybe we should start a thread with various questions that we need conclusive answers to?

Done
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