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Offline Kneeslider

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You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« on: October 12, 2014, 12:39:55 pm »
Ok, so following on from the "Why are we hitting the deck" thread, http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=161050.0 I put forward an argument that riders were loosing the skills that should be ingrained in us as second nature if we are to remain safe and derive maximum enjoyment from our machines.

In the interest of safety and learning, and maybe just an eye opener to drive home the fact that we are not quite the hot shots we think we are, and how automation has robbed us of our skills, I would like a few volunteers to do a simple braking test and post up the results, for us to debate.
Of course you can tell me to sod off, that is cool, but it would be in your best interests and a real eye opener to go out and try.

Firstly you will need a bike that has some form of ABS/braking aid, and  clear quiet stretch of road, a long tape measure, some chalk and a helper or two.

Firstly, draw a chalk line across the road as a braking reference point.
Start far enough behind the line to be able to accelerate to 100km/h by the time you reach the braking reference point line.
Get your helper with the chalk and tape to stand down range where you estimate you will come to a stop, so he/she can mark the position of the front wheel, once stopped.

First run, with ABS active to establish a bench mark.
Accelerate to 100Km/h, as you cross the reference line, apply maximum braking and bring the bike to a stop.
Let your helper, mark the position of the wheel with chalk, measure the braking distance and note it down, you can even draw a second line across the road at this point as a target distance.

Second run, disable ABS  by whatever means applies to your bike, switch/pulling the fuse, whatever, so that you have no braking assistance.
Again, accelerate to 100km/h, ay the reference line, apply maximum safe braking, and measure the distance, note it down.
I guarantee you it will not be something to be proud of.
Do another ten such runs without braking assistance, and note the stopping distances down.

Then come and post the results on this thread, let us compare notes, and all learn something form it.
A few things I can tell you now, your first un-aided run will be WAAAY longer than the run with ABS active.
Do another 10 runs, and you will see the stopping distances getting shorter and shorter with every run, as you get a feel for where the edge of the grip is, by run 10 you may even be very close to the ABS aided stopping distance.
Which shows us, that;
We don't know our bikes as well as we think we do
Our bikes are capable of a lot more than we think
The bikes limits far exceed our own
The more we practice the better our skills get and the more in tune with our bikes we become.
The safer we become.

If you have a bike without ABS, you can still participate in the experiment, look up the road test for your bike, (Google knows everything) and extract the tested stopping distance from the test and use that as your bench mark, post results.

So now you think you have it down pat?
How about spraying some water down, or spreading some gravel on the road now?  :biggrin:

Give me an honest run and we can all benefit form it, remember you only BS yourself.

  
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 12:42:47 pm by Kneeslider »
 

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2014, 12:48:46 pm »
Sod off  8)
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Offline volroom

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2014, 12:53:26 pm »
I removed the ABS from my R1150GS, cause I just couldn't live with it. I've been thinking of the repercussions though..I was riding in the rain over the weekend, and I tried to keep a safe following distance from the car in front of me, but I was guessing. I need to do some emergency brakes to explore, I need to know exactly what to do in case of an emergency stop. Will maybe do this, if I find the time.
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Offline Nicobie

Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2014, 02:03:13 pm »
You hit it on the head.

That is why we must attend training courses to get to know your bike under controlled conditions. I call it "bonding" as I must trust my bike and know my own limitations.

I did a race track course, with my GS1200 and its amazing how much your bike can do, with braking and cornering.
My offoad courses also gave me confidence in those conditions, but the biggest point I learned, was not to pannic as you learn your bike's limitations.

And I think we must at least go on a course once a year, not only to hone your skills, but also to learn from others and make new friends.
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Offline 2StrokeDan

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2014, 02:14:10 pm »
You hit it on the head.

That is why we must attend training courses to get to know your bike under controlled conditions. I call it "bonding" as I must trust my bike and know my own limitations.

I did a race track course, with my GS1200 and its amazing how much your bike can do, with braking and cornering.
My offoad courses also gave me confidence in those conditions, but the biggest point I learned, was not to pannic as you learn your bike's limitations.

And I think we must at least go on a course once a year, not only to hone your skills, but also to learn from others and make new friends.

And to race!!!
 

Offline StuartC

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2014, 03:41:50 pm »
You might ride like a tit,, I'm a fekking genius on a bike!!
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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2014, 03:47:19 pm »
You will get the same effect on 60km/h... = You / I ride shit....  :peepwall:

There is no skill in going fast... only skill is to remain alive when things go wrong...  :deal:
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Offline subie

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2014, 03:50:34 pm »
You might ride like a tit,, I'm a fekking genius on a bike!!

 :laughing4:
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Offline Franky3

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Re:
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2014, 04:05:55 pm »
I think this is a great idea. I would try it some time. Improving your skill is extending your life.
 

Offline volroom

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2014, 04:09:58 pm »
You will get the same effect on 60km/h... = You / I ride shit....  :peepwall:

There is no skill in going fast... only skill is to remain alive when things go wrong...  :deal:


there are huge differences in stopping distance as you increase your speed. at 60km/h, should you preform emergency stop, you could do it in less than half the distance compared to doing 120km/h
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Offline Marc D

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2014, 04:35:45 pm »
You hit it on the head.

That is why we must attend training courses to get to know your bike under controlled conditions. I call it "bonding" as I must trust my bike and know my own limitations.

I did a race track course, with my GS1200 and its amazing how much your bike can do, with braking and cornering.
My offoad courses also gave me confidence in those conditions, but the biggest point I learned, was not to pannic as you learn your bike's limitations.

And I think we must at least go on a course once a year, not only to hone your skills, but also to learn from others and make new friends.

I have also done the BMW courses at Zwartkops but find the trackdays and everyday riding also keeps one's skills honed.   
 

Dodging cars and pedestrians improves the swerving skills. Braking for dogs running out of driveways sorts out the braking practice.
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Offline HB 9

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2014, 05:08:28 pm »
You will get the same effect on 60km/h... = You / I ride shit....  :peepwall:

There is no skill in going fast... only skill is to remain alive when things go wrong...  :deal:


there are huge differences in stopping distance as you increase your speed. at 60km/h, should you preform emergency stop, you could do it in less than half the distance compared to doing 120km/h

Precisely my point.... if it is for the self test and exercise - why not calculate the risk at a lower speed... :deal:
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 05:09:11 pm by HB 9 »
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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2014, 05:40:51 pm »
The higher the speed the more critical your reaction time becomes, since you are covering a lot of metres per second.

It is important to practice your braking from a higher speed also, since I have noticed that some are scared to brake hard when at a higher speed, and would try and scrub off
a considerate amount of speed before really starting to brake. This is of course fatal, or could be.

I rode with GJ and Buff on Saturday, and while GJ was training on his roadbook, I was behind Buff practising braking late into gravelly corners. Tricky, but this is where
most lose it, overrunning corners.
 

Offline HB 9

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2014, 05:45:16 pm »
The higher the speed the more critical your reaction time becomes, since you are covering a lot of metres per second.

It is important to practice your braking from a higher speed also, since I have noticed that some are scared to brake hard when at a higher speed, and would try and scrub off
a considerate amount of speed before really starting to brake. This is of course fatal, or could be.

I rode with GJ and Buff on Saturday, and while GJ was training on his roadbook, I was behind Buff practising braking late into gravelly corners. Tricky, but this is where
most lose it, overrunning corners.

Agree... but as I read the post it was aimed at the riders less skilled and experienced...

It is important to work on one's skill level or keep within your riding abilities / limitations.

My experience is that it is the "unforeseen" that cause havoc - and adding speed to it - cause carnage...
Tread lightly
 

Offline HeeBs

Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2014, 05:51:05 pm »
You might ride like a tit,, I'm a fekking genius on a bike!!

True! I'm a riding God -  ask my medical aid !!!   :biggrin:
 

Online immigrant

Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2014, 06:54:29 pm »
People that have never ridden a bike goes and buys a 1200cc. They like the lifestyle that the advertising presents. If you have to go get "lessons" to ride your bike you should rethink your new hobby. Experience is the key. Spending hours and hours on dirt bikes in the open veld behind your house when you should be doing homework, dodging traffic on your 50cc visiting your girlfriend, then graduating to a 125cc, and then maybe a 500cc and then you spoil yourself with a 1000cc.
But nowadays people walk in to a dealership, drop R200,000 on a big GSA and then go to "school" so somebody can show them how to pick up the beast when it falls over!!  You need to crawl before you can run. If you are scared of your bike you should sell it.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2014, 06:57:44 pm by immigrant »
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Offline Marc D

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2014, 07:03:04 pm »
People that have never ridden a bike goes and buys a 1200cc. They like the lifestyle that the advertising presents. If you have to go get "lessons" to ride your bike you should rethink your new hobby. Experience is the key. Spending hours and hours on dirt bikes in the open veld behind your house when you should be doing homework, dodging traffic on your 50cc visiting your girlfriend, then graduating to a 125cc, and then maybe a 500cc and then you spoil yourself with a 1000cc.
But nowadays people walk in to a dealership, drop R200,000 on a big GSA and then go to "school" so somebody can show them how to pick up the beast when it falls over!!  You need to crawl before you can run. If you are scared of your bike you should sell it.

Very true, but an advanced riding course makes the experienced rider even better. I started on the 50cc and went through the ranks , as per your post, but the BMW advanced couse at Zwaartkops made me even a better rider. Well worth it !
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Online immigrant

Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2014, 07:07:55 pm »
People that have never ridden a bike goes and buys a 1200cc. They like the lifestyle that the advertising presents. If you have to go get "lessons" to ride your bike you should rethink your new hobby. Experience is the key. Spending hours and hours on dirt bikes in the open veld behind your house when you should be doing homework, dodging traffic on your 50cc visiting your girlfriend, then graduating to a 125cc, and then maybe a 500cc and then you spoil yourself with a 1000cc.
But nowadays people walk in to a dealership, drop R200,000 on a big GSA and then go to "school" so somebody can show them how to pick up the beast when it falls over!!  You need to crawl before you can run. If you are scared of your bike you should sell it.
I agree. It makes a good rider better!!

Very true, but an advanced riding course makes the experienced rider even better. I started on the 50cc and went through the ranks , as per your post, but the BMW advanced couse at Zwaartkops made me even a better rider. Well worth it !
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Offline Kneeslider

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2014, 07:37:24 pm »
The higher the speed the more critical your reaction time becomes, since you are covering a lot of metres per second.

It is important to practice your braking from a higher speed also, since I have noticed that some are scared to brake hard when at a higher speed, and would try and scrub off
a considerate amount of speed before really starting to brake. This is of course fatal, or could be.

I rode with GJ and Buff on Saturday, and while GJ was training on his roadbook, I was behind Buff practising braking late into gravelly corners. Tricky, but this is where
most lose it, overrunning corners.

Agree... but as I read the post it was aimed at the riders less skilled and experienced...

It is important to work on one's skill level or keep within your riding abilities / limitations.

My experience is that it is the "unforeseen" that cause havoc - and adding speed to it - cause carnage...

Not so, my post was aimed at everyone, irrespective of skill level, the focus of the post is not about whether we have the skills or not, but how automation is robbing us of those skills.
In most cases I would wager that the majority of the members here had those skills many moons ago, but have lost them and are not as sharp as they may have been before riding bikes with rider aids.

What Dan says is absolutely correct, it is pointless simulating conditions you very seldom find yourself in, braking from 60km/h is a wasted exersize and proves nothing, who much of your time in the saddle do you spend at 60km/h, very little, percentage wise.

Offline StuartC

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Re: You think you ride tit? You ride shit!
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2014, 07:48:45 pm »
The higher the speed the more critical your reaction time becomes, since you are covering a lot of metres per second.

It is important to practice your braking from a higher speed also, since I have noticed that some are scared to brake hard when at a higher speed, and would try and scrub off
a considerate amount of speed before really starting to brake. This is of course fatal, or could be.

I rode with GJ and Buff on Saturday, and while GJ was training on his roadbook, I was behind Buff practising braking late into gravelly corners. Tricky, but this is where
most lose it, overrunning corners.

Agree... but as I read the post it was aimed at the riders less skilled and experienced...

It is important to work on one's skill level or keep within your riding abilities / limitations.

My experience is that it is the "unforeseen" that cause havoc - and adding speed to it - cause carnage...

Not so, my post was aimed at everyone, irrespective of skill level, the focus of the post is not about whether we have the skills or not, but how automation is robbing us of those skills.
In most cases I would wager that the majority of the members here had those skills many moons ago, but have lost them and are not as sharp as they may have been before riding bikes with rider aids.

What Dan says is absolutely correct, it is pointless simulating conditions you very seldom find yourself in, braking from 60km/h is a wasted exersize and proves nothing, who much of your time in the saddle do you spend at 60km/h, very little, percentage wise.
Having 3 "cheque book terrorists" at home I can't afford a bike with aids,, as for going over 60-80 kph,, not that often in all reality
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