Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

Author Topic: Oil Question  (Read 1601 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Roadhawg

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1290 Super Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 3,138
  • Thanked: 106 times
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2019, 09:53:06 pm »
1200 has a dry clutch...

Whatever any of the others advise you John, take a tip from me.

Synthetic oil will definitely cause your clutch to slip, JASO or no JASO!  :deal:




Which is why....... :3some:

Haha!! Fair enough  :laughing4: :thumleft:
Stu
1290 SA-R
 

Offline Straatkat

Re: Oil Question
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2019, 10:19:39 pm »
Seeing that the BMW has a dry clutch, I guarantee you if you oil it with ANY oil it will slip! Jaso or no jaso
Current rides: Husqvarna TE 610 (2009),  KTM 950 SE(2007)
 KTM 500 EXC (2016)
18 till I die.
If hard work pays, show me rich donkey.
 

Offline TheBear

Re: Oil Question
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2019, 09:49:00 am »
Seeing that the BMW has a dry clutch, I guarantee you if you oil it with ANY oil it will slip! Jaso or no jaso

The person who originally asked about synthetic oil causing a clutch to slip, seems to have an F800GS .....

Oil remains an interesting topic for me.

People are saying that if its a wet clutch you should stay far away from full synthetic oils.

But I often hear that the  clutch is much smoother on it.

Boggles me. 

I'm too scared too take the plunge. So I am still on mineral oil.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 09:49:38 am by TheBear »
.#BRADICAL!
 

Offline Grunder

  • Muscles can't buy mad dog!
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW F800GS
    Location: Free State
  • Posts: 1,560
  • Thanked: 159 times
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2019, 09:49:49 am »
Seeing that the BMW has a dry clutch, I guarantee you if you oil it with ANY oil it will slip! Jaso or no jaso

The person who originally asked about synthetic oil causing a clutch to slip, seems to have an F800GS .....

He does  :ricky:
:downtown:
 

Offline TheBear

Re: Oil Question
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2019, 09:55:48 am »
Seeing that the BMW has a dry clutch, I guarantee you if you oil it with ANY oil it will slip! Jaso or no jaso

The person who originally asked about synthetic oil causing a clutch to slip, seems to have an F800GS .....

He does  :ricky:

Which means a wet clutch which takes us back to your original question, since the 1200 AC remarks doesn't help much.   :ricky:

The "oil question" is always an interesting one.  Ask 10 people and you will get 10 answers.  Herewith the 11th answer:    :lol8:

JASO MA2, or if the Japanese standard bugs you, API SL/M or N (American standard) oil forumulated for a motorcycle should be fine.   The following is a quote directly from my LC's Rider's Manual:

Engine oil:  SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2, Additives (e.g. molybdenum-based) are not permissible because they can attack coated components of the engine.





« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 10:17:14 am by TheBear »
.#BRADICAL!
 
The following users thanked this post: Grunder

Offline BlingKing

  • Don't just fix it - BLING IT!
  • Vendors
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 938
  • Thanked: 20 times
  • I will suspend you!
    • Bling King Motorcycles
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2019, 10:23:31 am »
My GSA has 15w50
Can I top it up with 20w50

Both are liquid molly full synthetic

Is your bike an LC or AC bud?

2012 AC

If you want to use Synthetic (which is perfectly safe to do so in both AC & LC models (except in high Km bikes - over 70 000Kms that have been running on semi-synthetic)) then use the prescribed 5W40 oil.
If you want to stay with the semi-synthetic that the bike comes out with - then you should use 10W40 only.
Always try and stay within the Manufacturers recommendations for the model in question.
What brand? That will always have the same answer from me - Liqui Moly! I am not a distributor anymore, but believe in my heart it is still the best brand around!
I have been to Germany twice for training on lubes & oils and am often amazed at some of replies on some forums and Farcebroek about queries on lubes and oils - scary actually, but that is the internet I guess!
As a guide if anyone is unsure simply go to the link below and it will tell you what to use by simply typing in the model specs in question.

https://www.liqui-moly.com/en/service/oil-guide.html#oww:/api/v1/oww/101/ZAF/ENG/4/
Professionals is Suspension Matters
We Service & Repair Dual Sport & Adventure Bikes
Upgrades, Repairs & Replacements of Shocks & Forks
Our quality is our key!
 
The following users thanked this post: Tony the Boney, Grunder

Offline King Louis

Re: Oil Question
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2019, 01:31:50 pm »
Not an oil expert, never will be. But had a 2012 AC BMW. Used any oil I could get my hands on, used her up to 208000 km. did not loose any sleep over it and did not have to either. Use it, don't use it.... :ricky:
 

Offline TheBear

Re: Oil Question
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2019, 01:56:17 pm »
Not an oil expert, never will be. But had a 2012 AC BMW. Used any oil I could get my hands on, used her up to 208000 km. did not loose any sleep over it and did not have to either. Use it, don't use it.... :ricky:

I tend to agree.  Oil is oil, but I believe the correct viscosity is important, especially on specific engines, i.e. those using oil pressure to adjust valve lifters.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 01:58:53 pm by TheBear »
.#BRADICAL!
 

Offline jaybiker

  • Old school=Old's cool.
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1150GS
    Location: Eastern Cape
  • Posts: 3,198
  • Thanked: 148 times
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2019, 02:10:32 pm »
Going back to the original post. Y'know what?..call me a cynical old bugger, but I can't help wondering.

If a mature, experienced motorcyclist who's been around the block bikewise, and follows this forum with all the regular discussion on this very subject over a number of years, needs to ask whether adding a cupful of 15W40 to an engine full of 20W50 will make any difference, does no one else detect just a slight odour of troll?  :biggrin: :peepwall:
 

Offline TheBear

Re: Oil Question
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2019, 02:18:16 pm »
Going back to the original post. Y'know what?..call me a cynical old bugger, but I can't help wondering.

If a mature, experienced motorcyclist who's been around the block bikewise, and follows this forum with all the regular discussion on this very subject over a number of years, needs to ask whether adding a cupful of 15W40 to an engine full of 20W50 will make any difference, does no one else detect just a slight odour of troll?  :biggrin: :peepwall:

You may well be correct you cynical old bugger.   :snorting:
.#BRADICAL!
 

Offline Gérrard

  • AKA 'jupiter' maar noem my Gerard.
  • Global Moderator
  • Castrated Dog
  • ***
  • Bike: BMW R1150GS Adventure
    Location: Eastern Cape
  • Posts: 30,560
  • Thanked: 241 times
  • WAT KYK JY
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2019, 02:19:42 pm »
All clutches slip until they take. Or it would not be a clutch
...dis nooit te laat om n happy childhood te he nie !

…, I wish I could own them all, and until I can afford to own them all at once, I will own them one at a time... 
 

Offline Cracker

  • Forum Whore
  • ****
  • Bike: KTM 950 Adventure S
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 5,203
  • Thanked: 132 times
  • Top Biscuit!
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2019, 03:22:30 pm »
Going back to the original post. Y'know what?..call me a cynical old bugger, but I can't help wondering.

If a mature, experienced motorcyclist who's been around the block bikewise, and follows this forum with all the regular discussion on this very subject over a number of years, needs to ask whether adding a cupful of 15W40 to an engine full of 20W50 will make any difference, does no one else detect just a slight odour of troll?  :biggrin: :peepwall:

You may well be correct you cynical old bugger.   :snorting:

Searching for a spoon, no doubt ...............
Don't let fear hold you back ..... take it with you!
 

Offline ChrisL - DUSTRIDERS

  • Forum Vendor
  • Castrated Dog
  • ******
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 28,011
  • Thanked: 341 times
    • dustriders.co.za
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2019, 03:44:27 pm »
detect just a slight odour of tdroll?

Afrikaans spelling not so good uncle? ;) :lol8:
MOTORCYCLE ACCESSORIES RETAILER
info@dustriders.co.za
ENDURISTAN SOFTLUGGAGE IMPORTER
www.dustriders.co.za
 

Offline Casting from Turd

  • Read my avatar and act accordingly
  • Forum Whore
  • ****
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Eastern Cape
  • Posts: 9,008
  • Thanked: 151 times
    • addobackpackers.com
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2019, 04:25:50 pm »
Hey... Loep naai julle lot    :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer:






I dont want to ride fast, But I want to ride FAR
Past Bikes...Honda XR250 Tornado
Honda XR650L
Honda XL1000V Varadero
http://www.addobackpackers.com
 

Offline TheBear

Re: Oil Question
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2019, 10:16:20 am »
Hey... Loep naai julle lot    :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer:

Watse olie sal die beste lubrikasie wees?   :lol8:
.#BRADICAL!
 

Offline Casting from Turd

  • Read my avatar and act accordingly
  • Forum Whore
  • ****
  • Bike: BMW R1200GS Adventure
    Location: Eastern Cape
  • Posts: 9,008
  • Thanked: 151 times
    • addobackpackers.com
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2019, 10:38:31 am »
Hey... Loep naai julle lot    :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer: :imaposer:

Watse olie sal die beste lubrikasie wees?   :lol8:

Just dont follow the your gay dyslexic friends advise and look forward to the 14th feb as Vaseline day  :biggrin:
I dont want to ride fast, But I want to ride FAR
Past Bikes...Honda XR250 Tornado
Honda XR650L
Honda XL1000V Varadero
http://www.addobackpackers.com
 

Offline Roadhawg

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 1290 Super Adventure
    Location: Gauteng
  • Posts: 3,138
  • Thanked: 106 times
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2019, 10:39:24 am »
Always use coconut oil guys.  I thought this was common knowledge? :biggrin:
Stu
1290 SA-R
 

Online BuRP

Re: Oil Question
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2019, 06:33:22 pm »
According to @BuRP, that is "nonsense".

http://www.wilddog.za.net/forum/index.php?topic=231174.msg4174503#msg4174503

But I've only been working on bikes for 45 years, so i guess I still have some learning to do.

Taken out of context Jughead, my verbatim reply was "Nonsense, plus that few oils have this Japanese spec"... which means, to be clearer still, no oil must have the Jaso spec!
For an old toppie (shake hands btw) that's a bit sloppy as well as unfriendly.

Here's a guy who understands what I meant...

JASO MA2, or if the Japanese standard bugs you, API SL/M or N (American standard) oil forumulated for a motorcycle should be fine.

.... and he's right!
In addition, API worldwide rules the oilspecs, JASO only follows, but more on that below.

This guy however doesn't have the foggiest...

Synthetic oil will definitely cause your clutch to slip, JASO or no JASO!

Really?
That would leave any KTM, Husky or whatever modern wet-clutch bike with a slipping clutch, for the oils the manufaturers recommend are full synthetics, do you realize this?
Your remark is hogwash, and to put this on a forum as fact is deluding!

Let's get back to the OP's question, which basically was if one may mix engine oils: YES you may, use any normal engine oil - period!
Of course you may, otherwise you could not top-up anywhere unless you'd carry the exact same oil your engine was filled with.
Note also that you may mix any normal engine oils, and any regular viscosity, even mono- or multigrade, ditto for a mineral, semi-synth or full synthetic... they may all be mixed yes!
Mind, some very modern diesel engines in trucks exist which need a special engine oil to warrant their super-long service intervals, and here one better tops up with the exact same (and prescribed!) oil! And, trust me the fleetowners make sure that their drivers do exactly this too!
Also note that all of this pertains to engine oils, only, not any transmission oil or fluids or any differential or special lubricants etc... engine oils!

If the viscosity is ballpark to what's required then a little of a different oil - viscosity-wise, or a mineral, semi-synth or full synthetic, mono or multigrade - added is nothing wrong with.... just top it off.
Note that I say "nothing wrong with" instead of writing 'can do no harm' or 'will be fine', because either of the latter have some negative ring to it - which is wrong and misleading: there is nothing wrong with, it is normal!
Note also that I wrote 'a little', so if you now go and replace your prescribed 20W60 with a 0W10 then on your head it'll be, you cannot read or comprehend this lot.

Oil is oil (and then engine oil is meant).
You hear that often, it's even in this thread... No Sir, not anymore!
When our (grand?)fathers were babies this used to be the case, and even then only sortof.
It all started with mineral oil: crude oil refined by distilling or cracking, and in the beginning these were monogrades - which means a certain viscosity at a given temperature.

We all know that an engine oil if it gets warmer becomes thinner i.e gets a lower viscosity, like a hot 40-oil becomes as thin/liquid as a 5 or 0 at a lower temperature? True!
For an engine operating in & at quite varying climates & temperatures that is a problem, so multigrade oils were invented - to allow an engine to safely operate in a wide variety of temperatures!
This did away with using summer & winter oils, the latter thinner than the former.
Multigrade oil behaves like a thinner oil when cold (to allow starting and warmup etc) but will thin out less than a monograde does - but note they both become thinner when warm!
So, in effect a multigrade will remain thicker (at operating temperature) than a monograde, but do keep in mind it'll be waterthin then.
The older generation will remember the obligatory 20W50, the younger one's will know about 5W40 or something alike.

A mineral multigrade is 'doped' to obtain the multigrade properties - and doping means chemicals are added..
Imagine some chemical spaghetti which when cold is straight, easily sliding past each other - but when warm curls up, in doing so interlocking with other spaghetti making the oil less fluid than when it would not be present!
This stuff when added to a monograde mineral will effect the oil to thin out less when hot, it then behaves like a thicker oil  - but again, keep in mind that the oil still becomes thinner when hot.
That's a simplistic multigrade oil for you.

The VI, viscosity index.
Take a gearbox whereby the oil is 'chewed' between the gears - it should be easy to 'see' the molecules being bitten shorter!
This actually happens too, and the result is a thinner oil, or otherwise put the oil becomes one with a lower viscosity.
Thin, very viscous (or very liquid, all the same) oil is easier pushed out of the way, therefore it lubricates less - of course, an oilfilm is needed to remain inbetween the metal parts so as to maintain lubrication!
Now, the clever chemical dudes also invented some chemical spaghetti - but a different flavour! - to put into the same mineral oil to keep it from shearing, to improve the VI - meaning to keep the oil longer the same viscosity so as to keep it longer lubricating.

There's other properties of oil required in an engine.
One is to keep the metal surfaces clean, and this is referred to as the detergent dope.
Then there is the fact that sludge should not deposit itself in nooks and crannies in the engine, and this is called suspension dope - the impurities are kept afloat in the oil so the oilfiter can do its work by removing them.
There's more like anti oxidation dopes but this will get too much so I'll leave this outa here.

Know also that dopes can form some 20% of mineral oil - meaning there's less oil (the actual lubricant!) in the oil!
Hardly ideal but time hence inventions went on, and processing of mineral oil was invented.
Agip Saint 2000 was one of the first commercially available synthetic engine oils - a bit dear in the beginning but very good!
This oil was/is made by building molecule by molecule, ester molecules to be precise.
Esters lube best, and know that vegetable oils (long time superior lubricants to mineral oil but not anymore) are mostly esters.
This was what is called today a full synthetic oil, in other words a real synthetic oil.
Its properties are superior to mineral oil due to the fact that the molecules are tailor-made for the application, the VI properties are down to the molecule itself (rather than a dope) plus the fact that esters clean very well.
Typically a real synthetic oil has little dopes, contrary to a mineral one - and this is of course why it lubes better - but it does that also for longer, especially so because the VI remains 'good'. And this bit we bikers like, for we all have a gearbox lubed by the same oil the engine uses, we would not like it to shear to water over time!

Because of the relative downside of a full sysnthetic, the manufacturing cost basically, another way to make a similar-quality oil was invented.
Mineral oil however differently processed produced synthetic-like quality oil, the difference being that the process is a lot cheaper.
The various oil companies marketed these oils as 'synthetic', and this was deemed unfair by those who made real synthetics so there was a court-case.
I believe Caltex won this however the outcome was also that this 'processed mineral oil' had to be called "semi synthetic" ... and this still is the case.

Therefore today we have 'normal' oil which, if any additional nomenclature is missing is a mineral oil - with which is nothing wrong, the world's machinery runs on these!
Then we also have semi-synth's and full-synthetics, both deemed to be better than mineral oils however each with their relative advantages.

What's the differences?
In very short, hence incomplete but sufficient for this thread, a mineral oil needs to be renewed quicker than a semi or full.
Also a semi or full can (not by definition "is"!) be better than a mineral, and a full can be better than a semi.
I'll guarantee you though that the price you pay is higher for a full lol.
A full is also less doped than a mineral (which is part of the above differences) so there's more oil in the oil, another reason why it lubes better - and for longer.
The viscosity as well as the VI of a full synth depends largely on the molecule itself hence need little if any doping, so no surprise that a good gearbox oil is probably a full synth.
One of the nicest differences though is that a full synth 'clings' better to metal, it sticks/adheres better than a mineral... with as a direct result the fact that the metal components stay oil-wetted for longer, contrary with a mineral whereby the oil 'seeks the sump'. And that is a big advantage when starting your engine, you know there's at least a bit of oil everywhere!
A semi synth sits somewhere inbetween a mineral and a full synth.
Note that of each class of oil very good oils exist, this hardly is a battering of any of the kinds!
Note also that a semi or full may not necessarily lubricate better than a mineral but it will do this at least better-for-longer.... remember oilchange intervals of 5000km for your car, if that much actually? Long gone now...

Friction Modifiers - and jaybiker, you better pay attention with this bit!
Stuff exists that reduces the friction in an engine - like oil (lol), molybdenum, graphite (almost graphene) and teflon etc - and they all work, surprise surprise!
Some are more effective than others, and some will be filtered out in an engine or will be downright detrimental for it, so experiment entirely on your own here  :P
Some modern and recent concoctions work surprisingly well actually, and no wonder then that the oil manufacturers have made engine oils with this stuff in them. They claim fuel savings even, and guess what, they can prove this too - it works!
But, these oils are for engines.... not for engine&gearbox combo's whereby a wet clutch is present also!
You see, the friction index between sliding surfaces is noticeably lowered with this special oil, and THAT is the reason why a wet clutch may or will start to slip!
Not the oil itself possibly being a semi or full synth, the sole culprit is the secret additive which reduces the friction coefficient!
Mind though, put this oil in your dry-clutch BMW or Moto Guzzi, it won't mind at all, better maybe, you may save on a bit of fuel!
To make sure you don't buy these special engine oilsthe manufacturers warn you by printing "Fuel Saving Oil" or something similar on the tin... so look before you leap into purchase!

Oil grading.
The world, a rather biiiiig place, adheres to API oil grading.
American Petroleum Institute or something like that, sounds impressive and is too, they simply rule the lubricant grading biz.
Then there's also Japan, an island somewhere, which thought it necessary to introduce their own standards called Jaso because they make motorbikes.
Let me put it this way Japan: nice try, but I'll look first for the API classification.
Hey, if there's also some Jaso blurb on the tin - bargain, but I also may just gloss over such  ;)

-----

There you have it, Oil Opinion #gazillion+2 !
Use it, laugh at it or wipe yer  :snorting: with it, I don't care .... but some opinions outed on this thread are downright dangerously untrue.
Mind, Google knows way better than me, so go there for more if not better info  ;)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 07:21:03 pm by BuRP »
Sparta MC50, 46 other 50cc's, Garelli Cross, Jawa 250, Kawasaki S1 250/3, S2 350/3, H1 500/3, H2 750/3, Suzuki GT380/3 - 10 year gap - KDX200, BMW 1150GS Adventure, Honda CBR600RR, Honda XR650R 2007 & 2003, Honda CRF230, Yamaha BWS100, BMW F800GS Adventure, Husqvarna 701, KTM 790 Adv R
 
The following users thanked this post: Tony the Boney, eberhard

Offline JustBendIt

  • Vendor
  • Vendors
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Bike: KTM 950 SE
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 4,669
  • Thanked: 105 times
  • cunning linguistic afficionado
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2019, 07:11:05 pm »
I believe that any oil is better than no oil

Its an air / oil cooled BMW engine pre dating the first Lister powered concrete mixer FFS - it will run on used chip oil  :pot:

Come in @ 2StrokeDan
« Last Edit: May 08, 2019, 07:12:18 pm by JustBendIt »
The older I get the faster I was
 

Online 2StrokeDan

  • Castrated Dog
  • ******
  • Bike: KTM 690 Adventure
    Location: Western Cape
  • Posts: 20,598
  • Thanked: 573 times
Re: Oil Question
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2019, 07:12:51 pm »
Not an oil expert, never will be. But had a 2012 AC BMW. Used any oil I could get my hands on, used her up to 208000 km. did not loose any sleep over it and did not have to either. Use it, don't use it.... :ricky:

I agree with you, It is actually the regular changing of oil that is more important.